As long as you attribute us and use the same (CC-BY-SA) license, you're allowed to copy, change, disseminate and exhibit this work without permission of the authors, even for commercial purposes.
You can give proper attribution by: 1) mentioning the title of the original interview(s) - or other footage - you used; 2) linking back to the interview(s) you used by referencing their urls; 3) mentioning the VPRO als original creator of the content; 4) stating that the original works you use have been released under a CC-BY-SA license
These four elements of the proper attribution should be included in the description or metadata of the new work and should be visible in the credits of the new production.
More info
automatically generated captions
00:00:00 Now the number. He didn't have her number I put it in the email that I sent. You didn't get my email that I didn't see.
00:00:14 And it's good to see you too so I hear you had some time with your grandkids Yeah I did that with us with our great
00:00:21 grandmother she's young knows a lot of planning a great great deal of fun I was goofing around with them
00:00:27 and chasing that was they played with their car one year and so forth
00:00:31 and listen to this her house which was quite nice my three Yeah I.
00:00:36 Think they took off a little bit for a couple hours
00:00:38 and we thought then you only had his play live you know Ryan Ryan thank you Ryan OK.
00:00:47 What was the plan it was allowed Korea OK Sophocles and take any and taking over. And he did well. Well OK. So.
00:01:02 What are we here to do well to talk a bit about.
00:01:08 Science and religion I guess and your thoughts about science and religion and my thoughts and our discussion OK.
00:01:17 I don't know where do we start with science or really with religion Oh well
00:01:21 or maybe we can start with well part part of it is because of the work that I do right is it's on the intersection of
00:01:27 the two and involves of pollution and so forth
00:01:31 and so that that's perhaps something that that you have thoughts about in terms of evolution Oh I have wanted to
00:01:38 thought it out so we can we can start with how all discussion OK so you're interface His between science and.
00:01:49 Philosophy. And religion right OK. OK so so.
00:02:00 We can talk live look at first but your thoughts about evolution we can have a discussion about evolution
00:02:05 and Christianity versus the views I'm working on
00:02:09 and so forth Well I think I come at it from a perspective of science therapy. And religion and.
00:02:22 The Lord has given me some models over the years and I've use with my clients
00:02:28 and have been profoundly helpful to them and so what you've done
00:02:36 and the work that you've done has been very important to me personally
00:02:41 and I've if it's helped me to think about things very differently. And I appreciate that I appreciate the.
00:02:55 Originality of what you've done and I recognize that. The work that you've done has been. It's been done with.
00:03:13 It had to be done persistently. You've always had a I mean you were born with a long attention span.
00:03:24 Your mother and I have remarked about that a lot but this is one of the things I think that that word is used to.
00:03:34 Give you all your insights. And that you're blessed and I and I we marvel at that really appreciate it OK.
00:03:46 This far is the. The business about evolution is concerned. What you have done in my opinion. Is that you've provided.
00:04:00 An ontology. That makes it possible for. A born again Christian and it. To operate in the same direction. And.
00:04:16 The model so that you know that you have come up with that you've used are powerful and to be in that.
00:04:27 It goes counter to. The ontology that is has basically had a monopoly. In our world and that's physicalism.
00:04:41 And time but you've you've proven you're not providing an alternative to that right which I certainly appreciate.
00:04:51 And as far as therapy is concerned I see this opening up the way for integration helping people to integrate which is a
00:05:03 very healthy faith psychologically.
00:05:07 And so I've been kind of working on that aspect of your work right OK and enjoying it very much.
00:05:17 I'm I'm in the process of trying to put her all together and make sense of OK right now. But.
00:05:26 So I come at it from a science perspective figured.
00:05:31 Born Again Christian perspective the therapeutic course perspective and what Or I've been.
00:05:39 Working is in models that integrate OK So you asked the question that's the answer for me right yeah
00:05:49 and I can understand that not all of G.
00:05:52 That comes out of my work is very very you know I mean able to a Christian ontology in the sense that.
00:06:00 You don't like physicalism and I'm showing the effect with physicalism is false so that really.
00:06:07 Does work pretty well there but I use evolution and you know
00:06:11 and I know we've had discussions about evolution that were for you're not in in favor of abortion so any thoughts about
00:06:18 that I'm using yeah that the theory of evolution itself pretty strongly to the company's ninety Classic list I've
00:06:24 pondered when you took that tack I pondered. What was going on there but what you did was to. Show that.
00:06:40 Truth and fitness are are are not necessarily the same thing right and that truth will go to extinction when.
00:06:53 One fitness fitness will be their fitness will win OK. And. But.
00:07:03 This is the this is the the problem the context in which you're operating it's not big enough OK because the context
00:07:15 nice to be expanded because there is a spiritual side to life OK
00:07:22 and that spiritual side is a term that the context of the. Physical context is going to pass away for all of us OK.
00:07:35 But there is a spiritual context and I'm a large but help me do it well a mile that puts that all together
00:07:45 and evolution then becomes. A subset or a one way of looking at what things are OK and I you turn.
00:08:00 Beyond to that when you. Shared with me about the concept of the evolution of. Zero. Basically life OK.
00:08:21 And so to me evolution is a result of limitation of perspective OK So the first back did needs to be bigger OK And I
00:08:37 think that I've got some thoughts about that
00:08:39 and I'm working on that right so I don't see that there is a problem with evolution I just think that it's.
00:08:50 A limitation of a bigger Oh concept right OK.
00:08:58 That's that's going to hear so you ask Right right that's so it's
00:09:04 and I agree with that eventually this theory of consciously agents could have therapeutic implications I mean if we
00:09:12 actually understand the principles by which consciousness evolves and
00:09:15 and so forth then it could actually lead to better understanding of our unconscious dynamics and you know
00:09:22 and new new therapeutic techniques certainly can
00:09:25 and it certainly is an ontology that's compatible more compatible with many religious points of view much more than
00:09:31 physicalism right
00:09:32 and so rejecting physicalism does give many religious groups that what they really prize the most which is a different
00:09:41 ontology and a non physicalist ontology Well like I said the different ontology is crucial record and in my opinion.
00:09:51 But leaving the just leaving the place. At the evolutionary. Respective. Is only.
00:10:04 A very limited view of a bigger picture and in the bigger picture.
00:10:12 When one more operating a part prove God then the further we are apart from God the last truth we have access to so
00:10:22 basically I see evolution as be what you cut you can come to when your assumption is that God is not.
00:10:36 Thinking OK So you're saying that if we take an atheistic position then we'll come to evolution Yeah.
00:10:45 Right now I mean that's one. Proceeding OK. But perhaps not the only again for example C.S.
00:10:53 Lewis also believed in evolution. Yeah well. Scripture does not. You think it doesn't know. The.
00:11:05 Creation and not evolution and it's very clear studying the scripture as a born again Christian.
00:11:16 Spiritual things are spiritually discerned at spectrum and that's been my experience.
00:11:25 As I've had a chance to walk with him more. What he's done is to. Put things put knowledge of spiritual context.
00:11:36 When you put knowledge into spiritual context I mean I didn't quite say spiritual I'm talking about born again
00:11:42 Christian Biblical context then you get a different understanding. Then putting it in a human context.
00:11:52 And evolution is knowledge that's been put in a human context not a god the context.
00:12:01 And so you know it's it's true when you're in this context I mean you can you could come to that conclusion
00:12:09 when you're in. A kernel context but you can't come to that conclusion in the biblical context.
00:12:19 And I agree that in Ultimately one could argue that I've used evolution.
00:12:26 To show that evolution is false
00:12:27 and there for a shot myself in the foot right a cut myself into a logical bind I start with evolution
00:12:32 and up destroying physicalism
00:12:35 but evolution in that in biology in involves belief in physicalism there I actually have a lot of fun with that writes
00:12:43 so but
00:12:44 but of course if I'm actually caught in that kind of logical paradox that I've actually destroyed myself in the process
00:12:50 but I know you're not right right I'm actually using just the abstract algorithm of evolution you know the what that
00:12:59 Dawkins call Universal Darwinism to
00:13:02 and that's what's kept you can evolutionary gain through I use that to destroy the physicalism of of evolution
00:13:08 but I guess so I agree that you know many religions including Christianity would love the intelligent that's coming out
00:13:15 of this but I guess the place we're there is a difference between the scientific attitude
00:13:21 and the religious attitude on it is actually in the attitude toward.
00:13:27 Infallible scriptures right in the attitude of science is always the attitude I could be wrong everything I say I could
00:13:37 be wrong whereas the an attitude that you often see in religions is you know our book is absolutely right letter for
00:13:45 letter perfect and couldn't be wrong so that So I think that what I'm offering is half what Christianity would like
00:13:53 and half what it wouldn't like right because the other half of what half is physicalism is dead which is I think.
00:14:00 What percent really likes the other half is.
00:14:05 There are no books that can't be questioned and no words
00:14:12 and books that that shouldn't be be question so that you know that and
00:14:16 when someone says that they have no word from God to two that we're in a position to even question that so Suppose
00:14:24 suppose I came out and said I've got a word from God And it's it's absolutely.
00:14:30 Unconscionable for women to talk in church they shouldn't even be able to ask questions I said that's my word from God.
00:14:39 If it's not in agreement with the word it's not a word from God That's right so is if I said that you would feel like
00:14:46 well you know I'm claiming that it's a word from God But you know it's probably just me I would toss it out you toss it
00:14:53 out now you know we're my nation to. Examine all anything that comes as a word from God.
00:15:04 And the three There are three tests given enough first period his fourteen.
00:15:11 Percent three that say first of all a word from God is going to be edified is going to build you up
00:15:19 and not tear you down and secondly it's going to encourage you in the faith
00:15:24 and not discourage from the right number three it's going to be covered which means it's going to be appropriate for
00:15:32 the aid that faces you right now OK So those are tests that were required as as boarding increases baptize an illusion
00:15:43 period to use to determine that there are there are three other tests
00:15:50 and one of them is been mentioned that is it is from God it's going to agree with Scripture
00:15:56 but also if it's going to have a witness of the.
00:16:00 If spirit inside you're going to know inside that the Holy Spirit is saying yeah so there is a witness of this fair
00:16:09 agreement with the word
00:16:11 and then how God works so he's turning his providential dealing out in our life to situations that we've come to have
00:16:21 to deal with
00:16:22 when all three of those wind up then you have a high degree of confidence that you're being guided by God OK Now most
00:16:31 Christians.
00:16:33 Particularly the ones that we deal with don't have a clue about that kind of stuff OK but the
00:16:40 but the one that I proposed you know that's like I'm here I say that you know it's it's really you know appropriate for
00:16:46 women to ever talk to even ask questions in church that would sort of fail all those all those tests Yeah so it's not a
00:16:53 word from Riyadh. But it's first Corinthians fourteen thirty four word for word.
00:17:00 But the very same chapter you quoted for the principles for what is it worked from God In verse thirty four the very
00:17:06 same chapter says exactly this Paul said women may not speak at all in the church
00:17:13 and they're not allowed to ask questions it's not appropriate
00:17:17 and he said if anybody wants to question me this is the Word of God.
00:17:21 Now my own attitude about it is that it does fail the very principles that you proposed
00:17:28 and that therefore that particular passage is even though it's word for word there Paul says for First Corinthians
00:17:34 fourteen thirty four women cannot talk in church to their credit no church obeys that every church says effectively
00:17:43 forget that that's not the Word of God It's the word of a man who needs psychotherapy he had some issues about women he
00:17:49 needed help
00:17:50 and so that's that's the kind of attitude I'm proposing about looking at the Bible itself right that we have to take
00:17:58 the parts take a burst by worst when.
00:18:00 Says Love your neighbor as yourself fabulous I'm all for that but
00:18:04 when Paul says women cannot speak in church to their credit no church listens to him every church says forget that
00:18:11 and so I think churches are in fact doing what I'm suggesting which is to take each verse way according to the kind of
00:18:19 quitter and you were talking about and sometimes rejecting the false as because it's unlucky we had issues
00:18:24 or he was mistaking a cultural norm for the Word of God.
00:18:29 Which is another cultural norms are not the Word of God To start I don't know what you would think about that kind of
00:18:37 argument well. What I would share about that is that the Old Testament and the New Testament.
00:18:46 If you look at them they don't agree err I mean in the test
00:18:51 but yeah if you didn't obey the law you know after Abraham if you didn't obey the law
00:18:57 or Moses did obey the law then you were dealt with harshly OK. But everything changed at the cross and.
00:19:11 Jesus took care of all of our sin that's all take care of past present and future and. That's scriptural. And so.
00:19:25 You know you have to take. Scripture and. And have and deal with the Holy Spirit taking into consideration. Culture.
00:19:39 And the understanding of it God was working in right there. I mean.
00:19:46 For us the Bible says certain things but we have to take that knowledge
00:19:51 and put it put me in the context of together understanding and so.
00:20:00 You know we've all seen in short a war you got so we'll have a problem with it so that for that verse from Paul so my
00:20:08 attitude would be that. I learned a lot of good things from Saint Paul.
00:20:13 And but he's a human being and he had cultural influences and he also made mistakes then he wrote them down
00:20:21 and I think you know religious people can just be intelligent about and take a book like the Bible
00:20:26 and look for the things in it that will really help them
00:20:29 and then see other stuff like Paul saying women should be silent and say you know what.
00:20:34 At best that was a cultural norm.
00:20:37 But certainly not the Word of God and it's certainly not something we should be doing today but
00:20:42 but if we go there then then what that really does is open up the entire Bible for that kind of I think very
00:20:48 intelligent discourse where you you look at say this makes sense
00:20:53 and this doesn't go according to the kinds of contouring that you talked about OK.
00:20:59 The problem is trying to understand without the benefit of the teaching
00:21:07 and the Holy Spirit without the Holy Spirit we're pretty well screwed.
00:21:15 As far as that's concerned OK we have to we have to have the Holy Spirit we have to be baptized in the only spear in
00:21:25 order to have the power and get the understanding from God.
00:21:31 And
00:21:32 and the understanding you can have through understanding just same time one human understanding one God the understanding
00:21:39 OK.
00:21:41 What do you mean by do you actually hope at some point to have some kind of reparation line between science
00:21:47 and religion and I think that both sides have something to gain in the process
00:21:52 and something very very difficult to lose for science it's giving up the physicalism and that's the part that I thing.
00:22:00 The religious side really like this letting go of the physicalism.
00:22:04 But then what science has is the advantage of the methodology of science which is never accept anything always question
00:22:13 everything you can even if it Einstein said it is not the truth right it's it's it's an interesting idea to take verb
00:22:19 or seriously to examine So there's a freedom from you at least in the ideal sense of freedom from dogmatism of course
00:22:25 any individual scientist is dogmatic about their own theories
00:22:29 but the science as a whole is not because the other scientists are very happy to tell you that you're wrong so as a as
00:22:35 a discipline science as this non dogmatic aspect so that's what I think is really powerful about bringing the two
00:22:43 together bringing the the non-dogmatic But you know more let's put these things out just as ideas that we can discuss
00:22:52 and refine so that it's a dynamic process
00:22:56 and that's so that's that's different from what most religious traditions have a right as it's mostly this is a
00:23:02 scripture every word of it can't be questioned and so so I feel like from my point of view.
00:23:09 The way I want to move forward is.
00:23:13 To the point where I'm letting go of the physicalism which religion's like but I'm also letting go of the dogmatism
00:23:18 and saying you know every like every verse in the Bible is something that I can look out
00:23:22 and say this makes sense for this doesn't we should discuss it and and then move forward
00:23:28 or not depending on what we what we see in it
00:23:32 and if we have that kind of proper mud then I actually think we would have a evolving spirituality where we actually.
00:23:41 Can move very very much more quickly forward in terms of understanding who we are as you beings that are not just space
00:23:49 time bound beings something you know conscious I agree with you. And. The problem is that the universe.
00:24:00 The universe as we know it is mathematical OK but. That's not all university is.
00:24:10 Right that's not all there is there's the mathematical aspect there's the linguistic aspect
00:24:16 and then there's the purpose of the whole thing right OK And that's one of the earth reasons why I like your model of
00:24:25 conscious agents is because the pathway between experience and. Just decision.
00:24:38 And then the pathway between decision and and the world actually the experience those.
00:24:47 Are three different aspects and require three different.
00:24:53 Markovian kernels right as you put it like OK From my perspective three different models.
00:25:01 Because they're different functions in right and you cannot.
00:25:06 You can get a third of it with mathematics right but only a third.
00:25:14 Of the other third is a linguistics and then the third the cows most of all his purpose
00:25:22 and the only way you can get purpose. Is to check with God.
00:25:29 Because he's the one that's green it is all in and we've been created with a purpose for a purpose. And perception.
00:25:41 Without purpose. Is meaningless perception with a purpose is meaningful. OK.
00:25:51 And what is the purpose with what we're saying is the purpose that. Well the are our purpose is to know.
00:26:00 God and enjoy him pervert. You know Joy is a very positive trait right. So enjoyment.
00:26:15 And that's one place where my model hasn't gone which is the purpose side of things I'm still not there I'm thinking
00:26:22 I've been thinking about that but from an evolutionary point of view which is you know.
00:26:28 The standard I'm talking evolutionary psychology kind of point of view.
00:26:34 And also just evolutionary biology more generally purpose comes down to.
00:26:41 Taking actions that will allow you to survive long enough to reproduce.
00:26:48 But and so then from that point of view all of our emotions
00:26:51 and so forth have been shaped by evolution to guide us in ways that you know
00:26:57 and to behave in ways that are adaptive so that we will survive long enough to reproduce
00:27:02 and that's the notion of purpose within evolution ever evolution of evolutionary psychology
00:27:07 but I myself don't feel comfortable that that's enough right because I feel like the evolution I mean I use
00:27:14 evolutionary psychology I think it's really powerful framework
00:27:16 and I actually think it will be very useful going forward for for therapy that that even with this inadequacies using
00:27:24 evolutionary psychology to understand the roots of our emotions why we have anger why we are so angry at cheaters.
00:27:35 Relationship between men and women and the different.
00:27:39 Things that are going on there why men
00:27:41 and women are so different a lot of that is understood by evolutionary psychology and can help if there be.
00:27:48 And so I think the short term there will be an evolutionary.
00:27:53 Psychotherapy coming out of evolutionary psychology that we really really insightful but but I still.
00:28:00 Feel human beyond that will still need a deeper theory.
00:28:04 But I see that happening over several decades and being a real win for for psychotherapy
00:28:11 but then I want an even deeper understanding based because we don't yet I don't have a theory of evolution that it's
00:28:20 based on conscious agents right so right now I'm just using the revolution as it's.
00:28:25 In the physical stereo biological evolution I'm using that to show that the physicalist assumptions are false
00:28:33 but what I have to do now and I haven't done it is so it's hard mathematical problem if an enormous is bad
00:28:39 but at least it's a cause it's a it's a specific goal I've got which is to develop a mathematical model of the
00:28:45 evolution of consciousness to understand what are the principal what is consciousness of all what's it about.
00:28:51 Which then involves discussion of purpose you know so what is the reason for and why should conscious change at all
00:28:58 but then to understand an evolution of consciousness
00:29:01 and then take that evolution if I project it back whatever theory of evolution of consciousness I get
00:29:07 but projected back into the space time interface of homo sapiens. Then actually get dark.
00:29:15 Right then I should get back to standard Darwinian evolution if I do that so that would be a constraint that I would
00:29:21 require on any theory of evolution of consciousness that a king with would be that that theory
00:29:26 when I project it back into space time as we perceive it
00:29:31 and matter would give us back standard Darwinian evolution which within that framework is quite well I think quite
00:29:37 welcome confirmed
00:29:39 but I don't yet have a theory of evolution of consciousness itself saw so I whereas in many other cases I can say you
00:29:46 know I've not got the theorem to get the mathematics I can I can close the books on physicalism I can't close the books
00:29:52 yet on a theory of purpose because I just haven't done that so so they're there I'm I don't have anything to offer back.
00:30:00 Except to say that I don't have it and I'm very interested in pursuing it
00:30:04 but I really I'm interested in pursuing it using a mathematical model as much as possible my feeling is that that
00:30:11 eventually.
00:30:13 Even spirituality can be in some sense an imperial enterprise where we actually have theories about consciousness Oh I
00:30:21 agree and we could actually then go beyond that
00:30:25 and that's why I think the you know having a different attitude toward the scriptures of all the religions not not just
00:30:31 Christianity but an attitude of get inspiration were it makes sense
00:30:36 and then take passages where they say women shouldn't talk
00:30:40 and treat them as they should be treated as not to the Word of God for today that's definitely not what we should be
00:30:45 doing
00:30:46 and have that attitude towards the scriptures then I think we can actually have an evolutionary spirituality that were
00:30:52 science and religion could actually meet and produce something that's really quite powerful the very human
00:30:59 and yet very rigorous I will I'll thank you copying my model of your body to get far enough along what I know where I
00:31:06 got the genes for Hanko models.
00:31:12 So I agree with you and I recognize that So you know the problem about working on purpose is purpose is personal.
00:31:24 Not mathematical Right OK So the purpose is outside the scope of mathematics.
00:31:32 I mean you could have a purpose for mathematics.
00:31:36 But purpose itself is outside the school it's too big an issue to be captured by mathematics OK.
00:31:47 Linguistics is limited in that regard also OK Only God has purposed it out because he created us and.
00:32:00 So therefore he's the one that can make everything work.
00:32:08 You know and he has a purpose for our life whether we whether we seek that purpose
00:32:14 or not is up to was he born transcripts are will OK but the purpose is there and their blessings that go with C.
00:32:24 He Depor bas. I would agree that purpose is not itself mathematics.
00:32:32 But I think
00:32:33 but I would say also that you know my experience of the taste of chocolate is not mathematics Indeed I'm using
00:32:38 mathematics to model conscious experiences and being.
00:32:42 I think successful at it
00:32:44 and I think eventually even though I agree that purpose itself is not mathematics if we understand.
00:32:51 You get a deeper understanding of what purpose is then I can find mathematical correlates to to model that just like
00:32:59 for example the space around us that you know is not mathematics
00:33:03 but we can use Euclidean spaces you know our three to two model even though the mathematics isn't the space we can use
00:33:12 to put in space and then we find out that that's not quite right if space really isn't Euclidean it's more Minkowsky
00:33:19 and then we find out that's not right you know go from special to it to John relatively find out its remodelling
00:33:24 and so forth
00:33:25 and so what we do is we use the mathematics as a model of something that's not mathematics we know it's space is just
00:33:30 space and as scientists
00:33:33 and we use that to try to get at the deepest understanding we can with the help of the mathematics as a cognitive lever
00:33:40 to help us go places you know conceptually that we might not be able to go without the mathematics
00:33:45 and that's what I would hope with with purpose to have some deep intuitions
00:33:49 and I'd be happy to get some from the Scriptures
00:33:52 or over I can get them to get deeper into issues about purpose what it's about and then try to capture them in math.
00:34:00 Batiks broad don't mistake the mathematics for the purpose it's mathematics is just a model in the same sense as if I
00:34:06 have a simulation of the weather right a mathematical model of the weather
00:34:09 and I come bring you into the computer room to show you my model you don't need an umbrella the simulation is not going
00:34:15 to get you wet as it is just a simulation
00:34:17 but it's nevertheless a very useful simulation of the other Nick actually be used care you know effectively to predict
00:34:24 the future weather and so I don't mistake the mathematics itself for the purpose but I would love to get
00:34:30 and this is again the I should have about all things that are taken as a spiritual where we take these concepts that
00:34:36 for thousands of years have been only intuitive
00:34:39 and we take those intuitions which I think you are a good starting point of fact all science starts with intuitions
00:34:45 and then wrap as much mathematics as we can into it knowing full well that we're probably wrong the first time right
00:34:54 space is not Euclidean it's not mentality it's probably not remodel it
00:34:58 but every time we find out why we're wrong with our mathematics we learn and we in our own intuitions get multiply
00:35:06 and so I'm hoping the same thing will happen ultimately in a more.
00:35:11 Open almost scientific kind of spirituality where we're taking the concepts that have been viewed as completely you
00:35:18 know off the off the table for mathematics put them on to the table start to develop strong mathematical models
00:35:26 and try to make predictions even in terms of therapeutic contexts so if this is my mathematical model of purpose
00:35:33 and this is a very human thing what does it tell me about interactions with people
00:35:38 and psychotherapeutic And so ultimately this is a really scientific theory of this stuff where we don't mistake the
00:35:45 mathematics for the purpose and the other aspects
00:35:48 but we use it too as a cognitive lever we can actually bring science
00:35:53 and religion together to really move things forward we can actually help people come be my wife
00:35:58 and I hope there's a person for every done.
00:36:00 That OK yeah that's Jesus Christ OK The he is the law he is the model for all of us for everything he is the truth OK
00:36:13 so if we want to pursue truth then truth is a person it's not a thing OK.
00:36:22 And so he came as a model but he came for a purpose and that was to provide a way for us who are natural sinners
00:36:34 and who missed the mark. To have a way to. Be resolved or.
00:36:45 Have our relationship with God the Father re stored Ridgeley And so that's why it's important to be a born again
00:36:53 Christian there is only one way to get to God the Father.
00:36:59 And that's through Jesus there is no other way period
00:37:04 and it's a no I gree with you to take the man out this far as you know. But. But God goes further than that.
00:37:16 You know why not go for the whole gusto.
00:37:20 Right right well yeah
00:37:22 and I certainly agree that there are probably in dodginess limits to it were a concept contiguous were.
00:37:29 A species like any other species and we were finite we were expecting a boundary bright.
00:37:36 Spiders can't learn physics and maybe we can't understand that you're pretty all right but with
00:37:41 when we're born again as a christian those limitations don't last after we need this body.
00:37:52 Blows those limitations are lifted. What I'm hoping for is though that. When we.
00:38:00 Bring the mathematics to these issues that we can get to the place where we're making making mathematically precise
00:38:08 predictions about. How we can grow as people. You've always people.
00:38:17 Have better relationships and so forth
00:38:19 and actually have a mathematically precise understanding of who we are as conscious beings
00:38:25 and maybe hierarchies of conscious agents that will allow us to take our therapeutic and and.
00:38:33 Social understanding to the to the next level
00:38:36 but do so in a really rigorous fashion where we actually have ideas that we put out that we say I could be wrong about
00:38:43 this so it's a very non-dogmatic attitude about this thing it's that saying you know even spirituality is an
00:38:49 experimental science and we have our current ideas and our current ideas are the best we've got right now
00:38:57 but there's a there's a D.P.
00:38:59 Melody in the whole thing where we say you know what even the best that I understand right now I could be wrong on any
00:39:04 point and then to then say so let's see we're we're might have be wrong on any things I'm saying. You.
00:39:15 End up in presenting Jesus today there are three now three have acts that have to be fulfilled first to present Jesus
00:39:27 today. There has to be love there has to be purity and there is to be power OK.
00:39:36 Now you can if you can find a description of that the nine aspects of love in Galatians five twenty two
00:39:44 and twenty three through this spirit.
00:39:47 To the attitudes that lead to appear to be are described by nine be added in Matthew five.
00:39:58 Check verses three to twelve.
00:40:01 The gifts of the Holy Spirit
00:40:02 and I guess totally spirit are described in First Corinthians twelve versus seven through a lot of it.
00:40:10 Now if you if you take these and put them in the right sequence and and you make and make vectors out of them
00:40:17 and in my case I've done it you take out you take out.
00:40:24 The fruit you take is the attitude you take
00:40:27 and you know if you put them together in the right sequence in the right way and you can represent.
00:40:35 Christ appropriately OK now. When when Jesus was walking here he made it very clear to the ferrous.
00:40:49 That they were whited simple curse.
00:40:53 To it but they stood in the way of people getting their salvation they stood in the door
00:41:00 and prevented people from getting through
00:41:03 and he said he did he they were a generation of vipers OK And the reason he said that is because he said you know the
00:41:12 law. You know the law. But you don't understand. The all that points to me.
00:41:24 OK so you can be a legal listing and mathematics is very legalistic. Son bending it's on you. That's why.
00:41:37 You you you you want to get. OK. But. That all of that perfection points to one man Jesus.
00:41:50 Who is God Well the book that mathematics can be flexible right it's that it can be flexible and malleable
00:41:58 but the I guess the attitude that I.
00:42:00 Above of sort of an imperative all kind of spirituality where we're all working together to try to grow
00:42:08 and understand and so forth. And and they pull out stones to kill him then he says why are you.
00:42:18 Going to kill me and they say him because you being a mere man claim to be the Son of God and then Jesus says
00:42:25 but haven't you read the Scriptures that say I have said all of you are gods
00:42:31 and all of you are sons of the most high then Jesus goes on to say
00:42:35 and if he says that there are gods to whom the word of God came and Jesus' prayer was
00:42:42 and the Scripture cannot be broken.
00:42:44 Then why are you trying to kill me just for claiming I'm the son of God so what Jesus is making very very clear there
00:42:52 is that we're all gods. We're all sons of God but we're all gods and from that point of view we're all in a position.
00:43:02 To discuss with each other and grow on an equal footing in other words so I'm
00:43:10 but I'm suggesting that if you don't you take that one
00:43:12 and take scriptures literally that Scripture is literally saying each one of us is God's
00:43:18 and Jesus sort of emphasizes that point he says I have said you were God
00:43:21 and the Scripture cannot be set set aside on this point he said Don't let the Scripture be set aside in this so we have
00:43:28 to take that that point very very seriously
00:43:30 and one place were were you going to take that very seriously as it says we're all of us done qualified as gods to
00:43:37 explore what this whole thing is about and to go back and forth about it now in
00:43:44 and saying that we're God's that's God with a little g. He's given us.
00:43:52 Dominion over the earth not to have it he's given has to be you know these are OK That's why.
00:44:00 He said in Genesis that's what he told Adam and Eve
00:44:03 but that's Jesus argument right Jesus was saying to the pharmacy's I said that you were God I'm only claiming to be the
00:44:09 Son of God so you shouldn't be killing me for being just a Son of God That's right they were claiming something bigger
00:44:14 so Jesus point was not God with a little g I mean his whole argument was the opposite you guys are gods with a big G
00:44:21 I'm just going to be the Son of God and so that was that was his argument to them when we're born again
00:44:28 and were baptized in the Holy Spirit our spirit become one with the Holy Spirit.
00:44:35 OK So from that perspective we are we've got everything that Jesus has. Our problem is.
00:44:45 Most of us don't know what we hear.
00:44:48 From Scripture we don't know the authority that we have
00:44:51 and we don't know how to use it OK I gree with you that that there's a lot of growth at least take place in you know
00:45:03 the majority of Christian all Christians gloating right all right. And scientists and anybody else Jesus.
00:45:15 In terms of theology Jesus was perfect theology he's the model. OK. So.
00:45:25 So where we were going to get our point of integration is around him personally.
00:45:32 And if we in our church integrate ourselves psychologically around him and spiritually and physically around him.
00:45:41 Then we're going to have as perfect. Operating life as we get to have OK and powerful.
00:45:55 If you want to and I think this conversation no I'm happy. Listening OK. But we've had five yeah yeah.
00:46:08 It's a good discussion. Now we've broken the ice on that while we can talk some more right.
00:46:16 Now there are other issues that you guys think we might want to bring up
00:46:19 or if you think as a scientist try to get more you know I'm happy to look at the modeling
00:46:24 and get as much intuition just I can there might my feeling about this is that. If we take this more.
00:46:33 Open attitude long dogmatic where we just it's a free for all everybody has the freedom to put their ideas out there
00:46:39 for them that we could really push things forward very very quickly I deserve it I believe that what you've done in
00:46:47 terms of giving he ontology the turned around bowing in the same direction as spirituality OK now you can now harmony
00:46:59 can take place I think I think it really can the only thing is used I mean I greet the intelligence.
00:47:07 Is remarkably amenable to most religious points you know it's remarkable that it comes out that way.
00:47:13 And it's against physical so many of my scientific colleagues are are stunned but then they finally understand
00:47:18 and they go yeah you got me that physicalism doesn't seem to be right so the next step is just letting go of dogmatism
00:47:25 My feeling is that.
00:47:29 Claims of infallibility have always gone bad in human history right it's it leads to wars between religions it leads to
00:47:38 strife and so forth an attitude of humility that says you know what here's my current point of view
00:47:45 but I could be wrong let's have a discussion and let's find out where a got things wrong and we're
00:47:49 and we're having that kind of dialogue from one of humility that's where we can really make progress verb
00:47:55 or it quickly and so when I put out about a mathematical model of brick.
00:48:00 Careful when I do that in like a public setting to say I'm putting this out.
00:48:05 To be precise so we can find out precisely why I'm wrong
00:48:10 and that's the attitude I love to see happening in spirituality words instead of saying you know it's my way
00:48:16 or the highway it's rather here here is I think a beautiful idea but let's explore and see where I might be wrong
00:48:23 and with that out of to have it I think we have the best chance of really moving forward
00:48:28 and having a spirit that doesn't lead to you know the fighting or you're you know if you
00:48:33 and that's one of the reasons that I really enjoy Andrew Weil Mack and Bill Johnson
00:48:41 and you will make them to Colorado
00:48:43 and Bill Johnson up in Redding California because they have that kind of open spirit I think OK and.
00:48:53 You know what I have or I've observed is that there are there that a Christian so.
00:49:01 One of the conclusions of your father was that when you're looking for a model there is a model he's right right.
00:49:10 Well and I think that I can look to Jesus' life for insight and guidance
00:49:16 but as a scientist I'm a Benchley going to look at it with a critical eye
00:49:21 and maybe there are parts of it that I don't think are good or a great model and to to pick
00:49:27 and choose for myself what I think is is worth and it what's inspiring and what what is not. So so.
00:49:37 Find my inspiration there and other places as well so our attitudes are a little bit different on that point. And.
00:49:46 Everything you do you're going by God.
00:49:50 To think about what he's saying there part of the problem is that I don't have my own mathematical understanding of
00:49:55 what God might be if I can at all so for me as a scientist.
00:50:00 Until I can unpack what in the three o'clock to say just what correspond to there it's hard for me to to grapple with
00:50:07 the with with the problem I mean one thing that seems to come out of my theory is that no consciousness is omniscient.
00:50:17 And that would seem to be against what most ideas about God say so if if that's the case
00:50:25 and again not that that's just my current understanding of a model even there I could be wrong
00:50:28 but right now my understanding my model is that that no conscious agent could be omniscient
00:50:34 and even in the sense of completely self understanding so the idea that you are guided by God Well if I'm not I
00:50:42 certainly would allow myself to try to unpack that statement in a rigorous mathematical way at some point
00:50:47 and to unpack that. As well to write.
00:50:53 Well that if he is right then I'll get some kind of mathematical understanding of what what.
00:50:59 A rigorous understanding of God means and if that's possible
00:51:03 and then an interpretation of what he's saying that would make sense to me what I don't want is a hand wave instead of
00:51:10 understanding that's that's what I mean these can sometimes be statements that you just hear
00:51:17 and repeat that have been heard and repeated for many many centuries
00:51:21 and I would like to go beyond just repeating what people have said for thousands of years I would like to actually get
00:51:26 testable hypotheses that make predictions that I that are surprising to me
00:51:32 and to start to make progress because the the kind of thing where you say Jesus is the model is something you could
00:51:37 have said you know eight hundred years ago in the same way I would like to start to say something new in a rigorously
00:51:43 mathematical way so I mean ultimately who knows where it will lead me I don't know it maybe could lead to reject
00:51:49 everything you say or maybe it will lead me to to say this you know I understand you in this particular fashion
00:51:57 but that may be it not be the fashion in which you understood.
00:52:00 So so we'll see where we're the mathematics leads it's an open enterprise.
00:52:05 You happy yeah yeah I'm happy with a good look at the tenor of the conversation I was glad that that he was they were
00:52:12 not. Defensive. I expected them to be more defensive about it specially when I was talking about.
00:52:21 Not taking every word of the Bible as you know infallible word of God I mean for me that's absolutely essential to to
00:52:29 secure that point because if you take it as the infallible word of God there's no chance for progress I mean if it's
00:52:35 all set in stone how can we how can we grow up so I was delighted that they seem to let go of that point although I had
00:52:42 to hit them with a pretty hard example to to make that happen. Looking at them.
00:52:55 In the other question or no OK my question OK.
Get inspired and watch tv episodes of The Mind of the Universe, made by Dutch public broadcaster VPRO