Donald Hoffman: Extra footage 2 (01-05-2015)

Donald Hoffman in an in-depth discussion with his parents on the intersections and mutually exclusive aspects of religion and science

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00:00:00 Now the number. He didn't have her number I put it in the email that I sent. You didn't get my email that I didn't see.
00:00:14 And it's good to see you too so I hear you had some time with your grandkids Yeah I did that with us with our great
00:00:21 grandmother she's young knows a lot of planning a great great deal of fun I was goofing around with them
00:00:27 and chasing that was they played with their car one year and so forth
00:00:31 and listen to this her house which was quite nice my three Yeah I.
00:00:36 Think they took off a little bit for a couple hours
00:00:38 and we thought then you only had his play live you know Ryan Ryan thank you Ryan OK.
00:00:47 What was the plan it was allowed Korea OK Sophocles and take any and taking over. And he did well. Well OK. So.
00:01:02 What are we here to do well to talk a bit about.
00:01:08 Science and religion I guess and your thoughts about science and religion and my thoughts and our discussion OK.
00:01:17 I don't know where do we start with science or really with religion Oh well
00:01:21 or maybe we can start with well part part of it is because of the work that I do right is it's on the intersection of
00:01:27 the two and involves of pollution and so forth
00:01:31 and so that that's perhaps something that that you have thoughts about in terms of evolution Oh I have wanted to
00:01:38 thought it out so we can we can start with how all discussion OK so you're interface His between science and.
00:01:49 Philosophy. And religion right OK. OK so so.
00:02:00 We can talk live look at first but your thoughts about evolution we can have a discussion about evolution
00:02:05 and Christianity versus the views I'm working on
00:02:09 and so forth Well I think I come at it from a perspective of science therapy. And religion and.
00:02:22 The Lord has given me some models over the years and I've use with my clients
00:02:28 and have been profoundly helpful to them and so what you've done
00:02:36 and the work that you've done has been very important to me personally
00:02:41 and I've if it's helped me to think about things very differently. And I appreciate that I appreciate the.
00:02:55 Originality of what you've done and I recognize that. The work that you've done has been. It's been done with.
00:03:13 It had to be done persistently. You've always had a I mean you were born with a long attention span.
00:03:24 Your mother and I have remarked about that a lot but this is one of the things I think that that word is used to.
00:03:34 Give you all your insights. And that you're blessed and I and I we marvel at that really appreciate it OK.
00:03:46 This far is the. The business about evolution is concerned. What you have done in my opinion. Is that you've provided.
00:04:00 An ontology. That makes it possible for. A born again Christian and it. To operate in the same direction. And.
00:04:16 The model so that you know that you have come up with that you've used are powerful and to be in that.
00:04:27 It goes counter to. The ontology that is has basically had a monopoly. In our world and that's physicalism.
00:04:41 And time but you've you've proven you're not providing an alternative to that right which I certainly appreciate.
00:04:51 And as far as therapy is concerned I see this opening up the way for integration helping people to integrate which is a
00:05:03 very healthy faith psychologically.
00:05:07 And so I've been kind of working on that aspect of your work right OK and enjoying it very much.
00:05:17 I'm I'm in the process of trying to put her all together and make sense of OK right now. But.
00:05:26 So I come at it from a science perspective figured.
00:05:31 Born Again Christian perspective the therapeutic course perspective and what Or I've been.
00:05:39 Working is in models that integrate OK So you asked the question that's the answer for me right yeah
00:05:49 and I can understand that not all of G.
00:05:52 That comes out of my work is very very you know I mean able to a Christian ontology in the sense that.
00:06:00 You don't like physicalism and I'm showing the effect with physicalism is false so that really.
00:06:07 Does work pretty well there but I use evolution and you know
00:06:11 and I know we've had discussions about evolution that were for you're not in in favor of abortion so any thoughts about
00:06:18 that I'm using yeah that the theory of evolution itself pretty strongly to the company's ninety Classic list I've
00:06:24 pondered when you took that tack I pondered. What was going on there but what you did was to. Show that.
00:06:40 Truth and fitness are are are not necessarily the same thing right and that truth will go to extinction when.
00:06:53 One fitness fitness will be their fitness will win OK. And. But.
00:07:03 This is the this is the the problem the context in which you're operating it's not big enough OK because the context
00:07:15 nice to be expanded because there is a spiritual side to life OK
00:07:22 and that spiritual side is a term that the context of the. Physical context is going to pass away for all of us OK.
00:07:35 But there is a spiritual context and I'm a large but help me do it well a mile that puts that all together
00:07:45 and evolution then becomes. A subset or a one way of looking at what things are OK and I you turn.
00:08:00 Beyond to that when you. Shared with me about the concept of the evolution of. Zero. Basically life OK.
00:08:21 And so to me evolution is a result of limitation of perspective OK So the first back did needs to be bigger OK And I
00:08:37 think that I've got some thoughts about that
00:08:39 and I'm working on that right so I don't see that there is a problem with evolution I just think that it's.
00:08:50 A limitation of a bigger Oh concept right OK.
00:08:58 That's that's going to hear so you ask Right right that's so it's
00:09:04 and I agree with that eventually this theory of consciously agents could have therapeutic implications I mean if we
00:09:12 actually understand the principles by which consciousness evolves and
00:09:15 and so forth then it could actually lead to better understanding of our unconscious dynamics and you know
00:09:22 and new new therapeutic techniques certainly can
00:09:25 and it certainly is an ontology that's compatible more compatible with many religious points of view much more than
00:09:31 physicalism right
00:09:32 and so rejecting physicalism does give many religious groups that what they really prize the most which is a different
00:09:41 ontology and a non physicalist ontology Well like I said the different ontology is crucial record and in my opinion.
00:09:51 But leaving the just leaving the place. At the evolutionary. Respective. Is only.
00:10:04 A very limited view of a bigger picture and in the bigger picture.
00:10:12 When one more operating a part prove God then the further we are apart from God the last truth we have access to so
00:10:22 basically I see evolution as be what you cut you can come to when your assumption is that God is not.
00:10:36 Thinking OK So you're saying that if we take an atheistic position then we'll come to evolution Yeah.
00:10:45 Right now I mean that's one. Proceeding OK. But perhaps not the only again for example C.S.
00:10:53 Lewis also believed in evolution. Yeah well. Scripture does not. You think it doesn't know. The.
00:11:05 Creation and not evolution and it's very clear studying the scripture as a born again Christian.
00:11:16 Spiritual things are spiritually discerned at spectrum and that's been my experience.
00:11:25 As I've had a chance to walk with him more. What he's done is to. Put things put knowledge of spiritual context.
00:11:36 When you put knowledge into spiritual context I mean I didn't quite say spiritual I'm talking about born again
00:11:42 Christian Biblical context then you get a different understanding. Then putting it in a human context.
00:11:52 And evolution is knowledge that's been put in a human context not a god the context.
00:12:01 And so you know it's it's true when you're in this context I mean you can you could come to that conclusion
00:12:09 when you're in. A kernel context but you can't come to that conclusion in the biblical context.
00:12:19 And I agree that in Ultimately one could argue that I've used evolution.
00:12:26 To show that evolution is false
00:12:27 and there for a shot myself in the foot right a cut myself into a logical bind I start with evolution
00:12:32 and up destroying physicalism
00:12:35 but evolution in that in biology in involves belief in physicalism there I actually have a lot of fun with that writes
00:12:43 so but
00:12:44 but of course if I'm actually caught in that kind of logical paradox that I've actually destroyed myself in the process
00:12:50 but I know you're not right right I'm actually using just the abstract algorithm of evolution you know the what that
00:12:59 Dawkins call Universal Darwinism to
00:13:02 and that's what's kept you can evolutionary gain through I use that to destroy the physicalism of of evolution
00:13:08 but I guess so I agree that you know many religions including Christianity would love the intelligent that's coming out
00:13:15 of this but I guess the place we're there is a difference between the scientific attitude
00:13:21 and the religious attitude on it is actually in the attitude toward.
00:13:27 Infallible scriptures right in the attitude of science is always the attitude I could be wrong everything I say I could
00:13:37 be wrong whereas the an attitude that you often see in religions is you know our book is absolutely right letter for
00:13:45 letter perfect and couldn't be wrong so that So I think that what I'm offering is half what Christianity would like
00:13:53 and half what it wouldn't like right because the other half of what half is physicalism is dead which is I think.
00:14:00 What percent really likes the other half is.
00:14:05 There are no books that can't be questioned and no words
00:14:12 and books that that shouldn't be be question so that you know that and
00:14:16 when someone says that they have no word from God to two that we're in a position to even question that so Suppose
00:14:24 suppose I came out and said I've got a word from God And it's it's absolutely.
00:14:30 Unconscionable for women to talk in church they shouldn't even be able to ask questions I said that's my word from God.
00:14:39 If it's not in agreement with the word it's not a word from God That's right so is if I said that you would feel like
00:14:46 well you know I'm claiming that it's a word from God But you know it's probably just me I would toss it out you toss it
00:14:53 out now you know we're my nation to. Examine all anything that comes as a word from God.
00:15:04 And the three There are three tests given enough first period his fourteen.
00:15:11 Percent three that say first of all a word from God is going to be edified is going to build you up
00:15:19 and not tear you down and secondly it's going to encourage you in the faith
00:15:24 and not discourage from the right number three it's going to be covered which means it's going to be appropriate for
00:15:32 the aid that faces you right now OK So those are tests that were required as as boarding increases baptize an illusion
00:15:43 period to use to determine that there are there are three other tests
00:15:50 and one of them is been mentioned that is it is from God it's going to agree with Scripture
00:15:56 but also if it's going to have a witness of the.
00:16:00 If spirit inside you're going to know inside that the Holy Spirit is saying yeah so there is a witness of this fair
00:16:09 agreement with the word
00:16:11 and then how God works so he's turning his providential dealing out in our life to situations that we've come to have
00:16:21 to deal with
00:16:22 when all three of those wind up then you have a high degree of confidence that you're being guided by God OK Now most
00:16:31 Christians.
00:16:33 Particularly the ones that we deal with don't have a clue about that kind of stuff OK but the
00:16:40 but the one that I proposed you know that's like I'm here I say that you know it's it's really you know appropriate for
00:16:46 women to ever talk to even ask questions in church that would sort of fail all those all those tests Yeah so it's not a
00:16:53 word from Riyadh. But it's first Corinthians fourteen thirty four word for word.
00:17:00 But the very same chapter you quoted for the principles for what is it worked from God In verse thirty four the very
00:17:06 same chapter says exactly this Paul said women may not speak at all in the church
00:17:13 and they're not allowed to ask questions it's not appropriate
00:17:17 and he said if anybody wants to question me this is the Word of God.
00:17:21 Now my own attitude about it is that it does fail the very principles that you proposed
00:17:28 and that therefore that particular passage is even though it's word for word there Paul says for First Corinthians
00:17:34 fourteen thirty four women cannot talk in church to their credit no church obeys that every church says effectively
00:17:43 forget that that's not the Word of God It's the word of a man who needs psychotherapy he had some issues about women he
00:17:49 needed help
00:17:50 and so that's that's the kind of attitude I'm proposing about looking at the Bible itself right that we have to take
00:17:58 the parts take a burst by worst when.
00:18:00 Says Love your neighbor as yourself fabulous I'm all for that but
00:18:04 when Paul says women cannot speak in church to their credit no church listens to him every church says forget that
00:18:11 and so I think churches are in fact doing what I'm suggesting which is to take each verse way according to the kind of
00:18:19 quitter and you were talking about and sometimes rejecting the false as because it's unlucky we had issues
00:18:24 or he was mistaking a cultural norm for the Word of God.
00:18:29 Which is another cultural norms are not the Word of God To start I don't know what you would think about that kind of
00:18:37 argument well. What I would share about that is that the Old Testament and the New Testament.
00:18:46 If you look at them they don't agree err I mean in the test
00:18:51 but yeah if you didn't obey the law you know after Abraham if you didn't obey the law
00:18:57 or Moses did obey the law then you were dealt with harshly OK. But everything changed at the cross and.
00:19:11 Jesus took care of all of our sin that's all take care of past present and future and. That's scriptural. And so.
00:19:25 You know you have to take. Scripture and. And have and deal with the Holy Spirit taking into consideration. Culture.
00:19:39 And the understanding of it God was working in right there. I mean.
00:19:46 For us the Bible says certain things but we have to take that knowledge
00:19:51 and put it put me in the context of together understanding and so.
00:20:00 You know we've all seen in short a war you got so we'll have a problem with it so that for that verse from Paul so my
00:20:08 attitude would be that. I learned a lot of good things from Saint Paul.
00:20:13 And but he's a human being and he had cultural influences and he also made mistakes then he wrote them down
00:20:21 and I think you know religious people can just be intelligent about and take a book like the Bible
00:20:26 and look for the things in it that will really help them
00:20:29 and then see other stuff like Paul saying women should be silent and say you know what.
00:20:34 At best that was a cultural norm.
00:20:37 But certainly not the Word of God and it's certainly not something we should be doing today but
00:20:42 but if we go there then then what that really does is open up the entire Bible for that kind of I think very
00:20:48 intelligent discourse where you you look at say this makes sense
00:20:53 and this doesn't go according to the kinds of contouring that you talked about OK.
00:20:59 The problem is trying to understand without the benefit of the teaching
00:21:07 and the Holy Spirit without the Holy Spirit we're pretty well screwed.
00:21:15 As far as that's concerned OK we have to we have to have the Holy Spirit we have to be baptized in the only spear in
00:21:25 order to have the power and get the understanding from God.
00:21:31 And
00:21:32 and the understanding you can have through understanding just same time one human understanding one God the understanding
00:21:39 OK.
00:21:41 What do you mean by do you actually hope at some point to have some kind of reparation line between science
00:21:47 and religion and I think that both sides have something to gain in the process
00:21:52 and something very very difficult to lose for science it's giving up the physicalism and that's the part that I thing.
00:22:00 The religious side really like this letting go of the physicalism.
00:22:04 But then what science has is the advantage of the methodology of science which is never accept anything always question
00:22:13 everything you can even if it Einstein said it is not the truth right it's it's it's an interesting idea to take verb
00:22:19 or seriously to examine So there's a freedom from you at least in the ideal sense of freedom from dogmatism of course
00:22:25 any individual scientist is dogmatic about their own theories
00:22:29 but the science as a whole is not because the other scientists are very happy to tell you that you're wrong so as a as
00:22:35 a discipline science as this non dogmatic aspect so that's what I think is really powerful about bringing the two
00:22:43 together bringing the the non-dogmatic But you know more let's put these things out just as ideas that we can discuss
00:22:52 and refine so that it's a dynamic process
00:22:56 and that's so that's that's different from what most religious traditions have a right as it's mostly this is a
00:23:02 scripture every word of it can't be questioned and so so I feel like from my point of view.
00:23:09 The way I want to move forward is.
00:23:13 To the point where I'm letting go of the physicalism which religion's like but I'm also letting go of the dogmatism
00:23:18 and saying you know every like every verse in the Bible is something that I can look out
00:23:22 and say this makes sense for this doesn't we should discuss it and and then move forward
00:23:28 or not depending on what we what we see in it
00:23:32 and if we have that kind of proper mud then I actually think we would have a evolving spirituality where we actually.
00:23:41 Can move very very much more quickly forward in terms of understanding who we are as you beings that are not just space
00:23:49 time bound beings something you know conscious I agree with you. And. The problem is that the universe.
00:24:00 The universe as we know it is mathematical OK but. That's not all university is.
00:24:10 Right that's not all there is there's the mathematical aspect there's the linguistic aspect
00:24:16 and then there's the purpose of the whole thing right OK And that's one of the earth reasons why I like your model of
00:24:25 conscious agents is because the pathway between experience and. Just decision.
00:24:38 And then the pathway between decision and and the world actually the experience those.
00:24:47 Are three different aspects and require three different.
00:24:53 Markovian kernels right as you put it like OK From my perspective three different models.
00:25:01 Because they're different functions in right and you cannot.
00:25:06 You can get a third of it with mathematics right but only a third.
00:25:14 Of the other third is a linguistics and then the third the cows most of all his purpose
00:25:22 and the only way you can get purpose. Is to check with God.
00:25:29 Because he's the one that's green it is all in and we've been created with a purpose for a purpose. And perception.
00:25:41 Without purpose. Is meaningless perception with a purpose is meaningful. OK.
00:25:51 And what is the purpose with what we're saying is the purpose that. Well the are our purpose is to know.
00:26:00 God and enjoy him pervert. You know Joy is a very positive trait right. So enjoyment.
00:26:15 And that's one place where my model hasn't gone which is the purpose side of things I'm still not there I'm thinking
00:26:22 I've been thinking about that but from an evolutionary point of view which is you know.
00:26:28 The standard I'm talking evolutionary psychology kind of point of view.
00:26:34 And also just evolutionary biology more generally purpose comes down to.
00:26:41 Taking actions that will allow you to survive long enough to reproduce.
00:26:48 But and so then from that point of view all of our emotions
00:26:51 and so forth have been shaped by evolution to guide us in ways that you know
00:26:57 and to behave in ways that are adaptive so that we will survive long enough to reproduce
00:27:02 and that's the notion of purpose within evolution ever evolution of evolutionary psychology
00:27:07 but I myself don't feel comfortable that that's enough right because I feel like the evolution I mean I use
00:27:14 evolutionary psychology I think it's really powerful framework
00:27:16 and I actually think it will be very useful going forward for for therapy that that even with this inadequacies using
00:27:24 evolutionary psychology to understand the roots of our emotions why we have anger why we are so angry at cheaters.
00:27:35 Relationship between men and women and the different.
00:27:39 Things that are going on there why men
00:27:41 and women are so different a lot of that is understood by evolutionary psychology and can help if there be.
00:27:48 And so I think the short term there will be an evolutionary.
00:27:53 Psychotherapy coming out of evolutionary psychology that we really really insightful but but I still.
00:28:00 Feel human beyond that will still need a deeper theory.
00:28:04 But I see that happening over several decades and being a real win for for psychotherapy
00:28:11 but then I want an even deeper understanding based because we don't yet I don't have a theory of evolution that it's
00:28:20 based on conscious agents right so right now I'm just using the revolution as it's.
00:28:25 In the physical stereo biological evolution I'm using that to show that the physicalist assumptions are false
00:28:33 but what I have to do now and I haven't done it is so it's hard mathematical problem if an enormous is bad
00:28:39 but at least it's a cause it's a it's a specific goal I've got which is to develop a mathematical model of the
00:28:45 evolution of consciousness to understand what are the principal what is consciousness of all what's it about.
00:28:51 Which then involves discussion of purpose you know so what is the reason for and why should conscious change at all
00:28:58 but then to understand an evolution of consciousness
00:29:01 and then take that evolution if I project it back whatever theory of evolution of consciousness I get
00:29:07 but projected back into the space time interface of homo sapiens. Then actually get dark.
00:29:15 Right then I should get back to standard Darwinian evolution if I do that so that would be a constraint that I would
00:29:21 require on any theory of evolution of consciousness that a king with would be that that theory
00:29:26 when I project it back into space time as we perceive it
00:29:31 and matter would give us back standard Darwinian evolution which within that framework is quite well I think quite
00:29:37 welcome confirmed
00:29:39 but I don't yet have a theory of evolution of consciousness itself saw so I whereas in many other cases I can say you
00:29:46 know I've not got the theorem to get the mathematics I can I can close the books on physicalism I can't close the books
00:29:52 yet on a theory of purpose because I just haven't done that so so they're there I'm I don't have anything to offer back.
00:30:00 Except to say that I don't have it and I'm very interested in pursuing it
00:30:04 but I really I'm interested in pursuing it using a mathematical model as much as possible my feeling is that that
00:30:11 eventually.
00:30:13 Even spirituality can be in some sense an imperial enterprise where we actually have theories about consciousness Oh I
00:30:21 agree and we could actually then go beyond that
00:30:25 and that's why I think the you know having a different attitude toward the scriptures of all the religions not not just
00:30:31 Christianity but an attitude of get inspiration were it makes sense
00:30:36 and then take passages where they say women shouldn't talk
00:30:40 and treat them as they should be treated as not to the Word of God for today that's definitely not what we should be
00:30:45 doing
00:30:46 and have that attitude towards the scriptures then I think we can actually have an evolutionary spirituality that were
00:30:52 science and religion could actually meet and produce something that's really quite powerful the very human
00:30:59 and yet very rigorous I will I'll thank you copying my model of your body to get far enough along what I know where I
00:31:06 got the genes for Hanko models.
00:31:12 So I agree with you and I recognize that So you know the problem about working on purpose is purpose is personal.
00:31:24 Not mathematical Right OK So the purpose is outside the scope of mathematics.
00:31:32 I mean you could have a purpose for mathematics.
00:31:36 But purpose itself is outside the school it's too big an issue to be captured by mathematics OK.
00:31:47 Linguistics is limited in that regard also OK Only God has purposed it out because he created us and.
00:32:00 So therefore he's the one that can make everything work.
00:32:08 You know and he has a purpose for our life whether we whether we seek that purpose
00:32:14 or not is up to was he born transcripts are will OK but the purpose is there and their blessings that go with C.
00:32:24 He Depor bas. I would agree that purpose is not itself mathematics.
00:32:32 But I think
00:32:33 but I would say also that you know my experience of the taste of chocolate is not mathematics Indeed I'm using
00:32:38 mathematics to model conscious experiences and being.
00:32:42 I think successful at it
00:32:44 and I think eventually even though I agree that purpose itself is not mathematics if we understand.
00:32:51 You get a deeper understanding of what purpose is then I can find mathematical correlates to to model that just like
00:32:59 for example the space around us that you know is not mathematics
00:33:03 but we can use Euclidean spaces you know our three to two model even though the mathematics isn't the space we can use
00:33:12 to put in space and then we find out that that's not quite right if space really isn't Euclidean it's more Minkowsky
00:33:19 and then we find out that's not right you know go from special to it to John relatively find out its remodelling
00:33:24 and so forth
00:33:25 and so what we do is we use the mathematics as a model of something that's not mathematics we know it's space is just
00:33:30 space and as scientists
00:33:33 and we use that to try to get at the deepest understanding we can with the help of the mathematics as a cognitive lever
00:33:40 to help us go places you know conceptually that we might not be able to go without the mathematics
00:33:45 and that's what I would hope with with purpose to have some deep intuitions
00:33:49 and I'd be happy to get some from the Scriptures
00:33:52 or over I can get them to get deeper into issues about purpose what it's about and then try to capture them in math.
00:34:00 Batiks broad don't mistake the mathematics for the purpose it's mathematics is just a model in the same sense as if I
00:34:06 have a simulation of the weather right a mathematical model of the weather
00:34:09 and I come bring you into the computer room to show you my model you don't need an umbrella the simulation is not going
00:34:15 to get you wet as it is just a simulation
00:34:17 but it's nevertheless a very useful simulation of the other Nick actually be used care you know effectively to predict
00:34:24 the future weather and so I don't mistake the mathematics itself for the purpose but I would love to get
00:34:30 and this is again the I should have about all things that are taken as a spiritual where we take these concepts that
00:34:36 for thousands of years have been only intuitive
00:34:39 and we take those intuitions which I think you are a good starting point of fact all science starts with intuitions
00:34:45 and then wrap as much mathematics as we can into it knowing full well that we're probably wrong the first time right
00:34:54 space is not Euclidean it's not mentality it's probably not remodel it
00:34:58 but every time we find out why we're wrong with our mathematics we learn and we in our own intuitions get multiply
00:35:06 and so I'm hoping the same thing will happen ultimately in a more.
00:35:11 Open almost scientific kind of spirituality where we're taking the concepts that have been viewed as completely you
00:35:18 know off the off the table for mathematics put them on to the table start to develop strong mathematical models
00:35:26 and try to make predictions even in terms of therapeutic contexts so if this is my mathematical model of purpose
00:35:33 and this is a very human thing what does it tell me about interactions with people
00:35:38 and psychotherapeutic And so ultimately this is a really scientific theory of this stuff where we don't mistake the
00:35:45 mathematics for the purpose and the other aspects
00:35:48 but we use it too as a cognitive lever we can actually bring science
00:35:53 and religion together to really move things forward we can actually help people come be my wife
00:35:58 and I hope there's a person for every done.
00:36:00 That OK yeah that's Jesus Christ OK The he is the law he is the model for all of us for everything he is the truth OK
00:36:13 so if we want to pursue truth then truth is a person it's not a thing OK.
00:36:22 And so he came as a model but he came for a purpose and that was to provide a way for us who are natural sinners
00:36:34 and who missed the mark. To have a way to. Be resolved or.
00:36:45 Have our relationship with God the Father re stored Ridgeley And so that's why it's important to be a born again
00:36:53 Christian there is only one way to get to God the Father.
00:36:59 And that's through Jesus there is no other way period
00:37:04 and it's a no I gree with you to take the man out this far as you know. But. But God goes further than that.
00:37:16 You know why not go for the whole gusto.
00:37:20 Right right well yeah
00:37:22 and I certainly agree that there are probably in dodginess limits to it were a concept contiguous were.
00:37:29 A species like any other species and we were finite we were expecting a boundary bright.
00:37:36 Spiders can't learn physics and maybe we can't understand that you're pretty all right but with
00:37:41 when we're born again as a christian those limitations don't last after we need this body.
00:37:52 Blows those limitations are lifted. What I'm hoping for is though that. When we.
00:38:00 Bring the mathematics to these issues that we can get to the place where we're making making mathematically precise
00:38:08 predictions about. How we can grow as people. You've always people.
00:38:17 Have better relationships and so forth
00:38:19 and actually have a mathematically precise understanding of who we are as conscious beings
00:38:25 and maybe hierarchies of conscious agents that will allow us to take our therapeutic and and.
00:38:33 Social understanding to the to the next level
00:38:36 but do so in a really rigorous fashion where we actually have ideas that we put out that we say I could be wrong about
00:38:43 this so it's a very non-dogmatic attitude about this thing it's that saying you know even spirituality is an
00:38:49 experimental science and we have our current ideas and our current ideas are the best we've got right now
00:38:57 but there's a there's a D.P.
00:38:59 Melody in the whole thing where we say you know what even the best that I understand right now I could be wrong on any
00:39:04 point and then to then say so let's see we're we're might have be wrong on any things I'm saying. You.
00:39:15 End up in presenting Jesus today there are three now three have acts that have to be fulfilled first to present Jesus
00:39:27 today. There has to be love there has to be purity and there is to be power OK.
00:39:36 Now you can if you can find a description of that the nine aspects of love in Galatians five twenty two
00:39:44 and twenty three through this spirit.
00:39:47 To the attitudes that lead to appear to be are described by nine be added in Matthew five.
00:39:58 Check verses three to twelve.
00:40:01 The gifts of the Holy Spirit
00:40:02 and I guess totally spirit are described in First Corinthians twelve versus seven through a lot of it.
00:40:10 Now if you if you take these and put them in the right sequence and and you make and make vectors out of them
00:40:17 and in my case I've done it you take out you take out.
00:40:24 The fruit you take is the attitude you take
00:40:27 and you know if you put them together in the right sequence in the right way and you can represent.
00:40:35 Christ appropriately OK now. When when Jesus was walking here he made it very clear to the ferrous.
00:40:49 That they were whited simple curse.
00:40:53 To it but they stood in the way of people getting their salvation they stood in the door
00:41:00 and prevented people from getting through
00:41:03 and he said he did he they were a generation of vipers OK And the reason he said that is because he said you know the
00:41:12 law. You know the law. But you don't understand. The all that points to me.
00:41:24 OK so you can be a legal listing and mathematics is very legalistic. Son bending it's on you. That's why.
00:41:37 You you you you want to get. OK. But. That all of that perfection points to one man Jesus.
00:41:50 Who is God Well the book that mathematics can be flexible right it's that it can be flexible and malleable
00:41:58 but the I guess the attitude that I.
00:42:00 Above of sort of an imperative all kind of spirituality where we're all working together to try to grow
00:42:08 and understand and so forth. And and they pull out stones to kill him then he says why are you.
00:42:18 Going to kill me and they say him because you being a mere man claim to be the Son of God and then Jesus says
00:42:25 but haven't you read the Scriptures that say I have said all of you are gods
00:42:31 and all of you are sons of the most high then Jesus goes on to say
00:42:35 and if he says that there are gods to whom the word of God came and Jesus' prayer was
00:42:42 and the Scripture cannot be broken.
00:42:44 Then why are you trying to kill me just for claiming I'm the son of God so what Jesus is making very very clear there
00:42:52 is that we're all gods. We're all sons of God but we're all gods and from that point of view we're all in a position.
00:43:02 To discuss with each other and grow on an equal footing in other words so I'm
00:43:10 but I'm suggesting that if you don't you take that one
00:43:12 and take scriptures literally that Scripture is literally saying each one of us is God's
00:43:18 and Jesus sort of emphasizes that point he says I have said you were God
00:43:21 and the Scripture cannot be set set aside on this point he said Don't let the Scripture be set aside in this so we have
00:43:28 to take that that point very very seriously
00:43:30 and one place were were you going to take that very seriously as it says we're all of us done qualified as gods to
00:43:37 explore what this whole thing is about and to go back and forth about it now in
00:43:44 and saying that we're God's that's God with a little g. He's given us.
00:43:52 Dominion over the earth not to have it he's given has to be you know these are OK That's why.
00:44:00 He said in Genesis that's what he told Adam and Eve
00:44:03 but that's Jesus argument right Jesus was saying to the pharmacy's I said that you were God I'm only claiming to be the
00:44:09 Son of God so you shouldn't be killing me for being just a Son of God That's right they were claiming something bigger
00:44:14 so Jesus point was not God with a little g I mean his whole argument was the opposite you guys are gods with a big G
00:44:21 I'm just going to be the Son of God and so that was that was his argument to them when we're born again
00:44:28 and were baptized in the Holy Spirit our spirit become one with the Holy Spirit.
00:44:35 OK So from that perspective we are we've got everything that Jesus has. Our problem is.
00:44:45 Most of us don't know what we hear.
00:44:48 From Scripture we don't know the authority that we have
00:44:51 and we don't know how to use it OK I gree with you that that there's a lot of growth at least take place in you know
00:45:03 the majority of Christian all Christians gloating right all right. And scientists and anybody else Jesus.
00:45:15 In terms of theology Jesus was perfect theology he's the model. OK. So.
00:45:25 So where we were going to get our point of integration is around him personally.
00:45:32 And if we in our church integrate ourselves psychologically around him and spiritually and physically around him.
00:45:41 Then we're going to have as perfect. Operating life as we get to have OK and powerful.
00:45:55 If you want to and I think this conversation no I'm happy. Listening OK. But we've had five yeah yeah.
00:46:08 It's a good discussion. Now we've broken the ice on that while we can talk some more right.
00:46:16 Now there are other issues that you guys think we might want to bring up
00:46:19 or if you think as a scientist try to get more you know I'm happy to look at the modeling
00:46:24 and get as much intuition just I can there might my feeling about this is that. If we take this more.
00:46:33 Open attitude long dogmatic where we just it's a free for all everybody has the freedom to put their ideas out there
00:46:39 for them that we could really push things forward very very quickly I deserve it I believe that what you've done in
00:46:47 terms of giving he ontology the turned around bowing in the same direction as spirituality OK now you can now harmony
00:46:59 can take place I think I think it really can the only thing is used I mean I greet the intelligence.
00:47:07 Is remarkably amenable to most religious points you know it's remarkable that it comes out that way.
00:47:13 And it's against physical so many of my scientific colleagues are are stunned but then they finally understand
00:47:18 and they go yeah you got me that physicalism doesn't seem to be right so the next step is just letting go of dogmatism
00:47:25 My feeling is that.
00:47:29 Claims of infallibility have always gone bad in human history right it's it leads to wars between religions it leads to
00:47:38 strife and so forth an attitude of humility that says you know what here's my current point of view
00:47:45 but I could be wrong let's have a discussion and let's find out where a got things wrong and we're
00:47:49 and we're having that kind of dialogue from one of humility that's where we can really make progress verb
00:47:55 or it quickly and so when I put out about a mathematical model of brick.
00:48:00 Careful when I do that in like a public setting to say I'm putting this out.
00:48:05 To be precise so we can find out precisely why I'm wrong
00:48:10 and that's the attitude I love to see happening in spirituality words instead of saying you know it's my way
00:48:16 or the highway it's rather here here is I think a beautiful idea but let's explore and see where I might be wrong
00:48:23 and with that out of to have it I think we have the best chance of really moving forward
00:48:28 and having a spirit that doesn't lead to you know the fighting or you're you know if you
00:48:33 and that's one of the reasons that I really enjoy Andrew Weil Mack and Bill Johnson
00:48:41 and you will make them to Colorado
00:48:43 and Bill Johnson up in Redding California because they have that kind of open spirit I think OK and.
00:48:53 You know what I have or I've observed is that there are there that a Christian so.
00:49:01 One of the conclusions of your father was that when you're looking for a model there is a model he's right right.
00:49:10 Well and I think that I can look to Jesus' life for insight and guidance
00:49:16 but as a scientist I'm a Benchley going to look at it with a critical eye
00:49:21 and maybe there are parts of it that I don't think are good or a great model and to to pick
00:49:27 and choose for myself what I think is is worth and it what's inspiring and what what is not. So so.
00:49:37 Find my inspiration there and other places as well so our attitudes are a little bit different on that point. And.
00:49:46 Everything you do you're going by God.
00:49:50 To think about what he's saying there part of the problem is that I don't have my own mathematical understanding of
00:49:55 what God might be if I can at all so for me as a scientist.
00:50:00 Until I can unpack what in the three o'clock to say just what correspond to there it's hard for me to to grapple with
00:50:07 the with with the problem I mean one thing that seems to come out of my theory is that no consciousness is omniscient.
00:50:17 And that would seem to be against what most ideas about God say so if if that's the case
00:50:25 and again not that that's just my current understanding of a model even there I could be wrong
00:50:28 but right now my understanding my model is that that no conscious agent could be omniscient
00:50:34 and even in the sense of completely self understanding so the idea that you are guided by God Well if I'm not I
00:50:42 certainly would allow myself to try to unpack that statement in a rigorous mathematical way at some point
00:50:47 and to unpack that. As well to write.
00:50:53 Well that if he is right then I'll get some kind of mathematical understanding of what what.
00:50:59 A rigorous understanding of God means and if that's possible
00:51:03 and then an interpretation of what he's saying that would make sense to me what I don't want is a hand wave instead of
00:51:10 understanding that's that's what I mean these can sometimes be statements that you just hear
00:51:17 and repeat that have been heard and repeated for many many centuries
00:51:21 and I would like to go beyond just repeating what people have said for thousands of years I would like to actually get
00:51:26 testable hypotheses that make predictions that I that are surprising to me
00:51:32 and to start to make progress because the the kind of thing where you say Jesus is the model is something you could
00:51:37 have said you know eight hundred years ago in the same way I would like to start to say something new in a rigorously
00:51:43 mathematical way so I mean ultimately who knows where it will lead me I don't know it maybe could lead to reject
00:51:49 everything you say or maybe it will lead me to to say this you know I understand you in this particular fashion
00:51:57 but that may be it not be the fashion in which you understood.
00:52:00 So so we'll see where we're the mathematics leads it's an open enterprise.
00:52:05 You happy yeah yeah I'm happy with a good look at the tenor of the conversation I was glad that that he was they were
00:52:12 not. Defensive. I expected them to be more defensive about it specially when I was talking about.
00:52:21 Not taking every word of the Bible as you know infallible word of God I mean for me that's absolutely essential to to
00:52:29 secure that point because if you take it as the infallible word of God there's no chance for progress I mean if it's
00:52:35 all set in stone how can we how can we grow up so I was delighted that they seem to let go of that point although I had
00:52:42 to hit them with a pretty hard example to to make that happen. Looking at them.
00:52:55 In the other question or no OK my question OK.
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