Ron Fouchier: Extra footage 1 (23-03-2016)

Interview with Ron Fouchier in a duck trap facility. He explains his research on flu viruses on wild birds, and reflects on its potential effects for humans and the future

More videos with Ron Fouchier

automatically generated captions
00:00:00 (interviewer) So what did we do, just a moment ago?
00:00:03 We are now in a duck trap facility at Oud-Alblas.
00:00:08 We have a longstanding practice of catching wild ducks here, for our research on flu viruses.
00:00:15 These wild ducks are actually the natural hosts of flu viruses.
00:00:21 The viruses are completely harmless to them...
00:00:24 because these viruses evolved for millions of years in sync with birds.
00:00:27 We can catch these birds quite easily here.
00:00:33 Once they are caught we take samples of their cloacas and throaths.
00:00:40 These viruses proliferate quickly in the respiratory system, both in humans and birds.
00:00:45 However, in birds they also proliferate in the stomach and intestines.
00:00:51 By taking samples we can identify these flu viruses in wild birds.
00:00:55 (interviewer) What is your affinity with viruses?
00:00:59 Viruses are fascinating organisms.
00:01:03 In particular because they are so small, you cannot see them.
00:01:08 Viruses are incredibly diverse. Every human, plant, animal, mold, bacterium, they all have their own viruses...
00:01:15 dozens of different viruses per species.
00:01:18 The diversity of viruses exceeds the diversity in nature we normally observe with our bare eyes.
00:01:25 Viruses evolve, just like humans and animals do.
00:01:32 However, viruses evolve quickly, so we can actually study evolution by studying viruses.
00:01:37 And this is what my research group is mainly doing.
00:01:40 They are interested in understanding how evolution works, in particular in viruses, in my case flu viruses.
00:01:48 (interviewer) When people think of viruses, they usually think: oops, dangerous, or even deadly.
00:01:57 Yes, well, most of the viruses we find in nature are completely harmless.
00:02:01 Me myself, and all other humans, we are constantly hosting viruses that do not harm us.
00:02:07 This is also the case for plants, molds, bacteria...
00:02:11 Most viruses are completely harmless.
00:02:14 The viruses in wild birds that we study are harmless to them...
00:02:19 That does not mean that viruses are totally innocuous.
00:02:23 We see, for example, that viruses in wild ducks can cross into poultry.
00:02:28 They may evolve in poultry to more dangerous variants, that eventually kills chickens and turkeys.
00:02:35 (interviewer) Are viruses a kind of conquerors of the world? Would that be a correct way to put it?
00:02:42 Viruses did not really conquer the world. Actually, we conquered the world after the viruses.
00:02:48 The theory is that viruses are the basis of life.
00:02:54 Bacteria, molds, and the higher organisms have evolved from viral elements.
00:03:01 Actually, viruses are the basis of contemporary life.
00:03:06 We conquered the world at the expense of the viruses.
00:03:11 (interviewer) But we are in a constant battle with them.
00:03:14 Yes, there are constant new threaths and new viruses that cross between hosts.
00:03:21 For example, from wild birds to poultry, or from poultry to humans.
00:03:25 When viruses change hosts, we can discern some regularity in the problems that occur.
00:03:32 We see that in flu viruses, but also in Zika and Ebola viruses.
00:03:40 We have seen large pandemonia of viruses that were harmless for their natural hosts.
00:03:45 But when they cross into a new host... new hosts are not really adapted to them, which causes trouble.
00:03:52 (interviewer) They can cause really big trouble, right?
00:03:56 Yes, most viruses are completely harmless, but we know that some families cause trouble.
00:04:06 Especially when they cross from animal to human. The recent Ebola outbreak is a good example...
00:04:14 Because the 'case fatality rate', the likeliness of death occuring in case of infection, was between 50%-90%.
00:04:24 But the good thing of the Ebola virus is that it does not proliferate well among humans.
00:04:29 And therefore there was no global outbreak, while other viruses can actually instantiate this.
00:04:35 Flu viruses are an example: if they cross to humans, and if they can proliferate among them, then we see a pandemonium.
00:04:47 That is a global epidemic, we have seen that in 2009 with the Mexican flu, and the swine flu that crossed to humans.
00:04:56 Within a few months it was spread throughout the entire world.
00:05:00 It is not as deadly as Ebola, but the epidemic killed at least 200.000 humans.
00:05:09 (interviewer) Your lab is mainly working with this kind of viruses, but what is it that renders your lab a state-of-the-art lab?
00:05:22 The big difference with other labs is that in our lab, viruses are studied from begin to end.
00:05:31 We start studying wild birds, the evolution and adaption of viruses to these birds, their crossing to poultry...
00:05:41 And how they cause problems there. We study the crossing from poulty to humans...
00:05:48 what kind of evolution processes are relevant there, and we study how viruses evolve in humans.
00:05:56 We see them returning every year in epidemics, they keep mutating, so that we constantly have to adapt our vaccines.
00:06:04 We study all facets of evolution: in nature with wild birds, in the lab, by imitating viruses with molecular techniques...
00:06:17 but also with genetic modification and in the lab with animal experiments. So actually the entire field from the natural origins...
00:06:29 to studying the molecular process in the smallest details, is what distinguishes our lab.
00:06:35 (interviewer) I also understood that you have a large archive?
00:06:40 Yes, we have build archives throughout the years. Rotterdam has employed virologists that work on viruses for more than 50 years.
00:06:53 The collection in our deep freezers dates back to the '30s, '40s, the time of prof. Mulder and prof. Masurel.
00:07:02 They are still being updated. So also for bird flu, swine flu, human flu... we have an enormous collection of viruses.
00:07:11 (interviewer) And if you have to explain in a few words what your research is about?
00:07:18 My research focuses on the evolution of flu viruses: when they adapt to new hosts, and when they try to escape our immune system.
00:07:34 That is the core of my research.
00:07:36 (interviewer) Some time ago you studied the proliferation of viruses, you even made a virus yourself...
00:07:42 (interviewer) Can you describe what happened in August 2011?
00:07:48 In the summer of 2011, we discovered that the H5N1 bird flu virus, which is highly pathogenic and deadly for chickens...
00:07:57 Could be transmitted between mammals via the respiratory system.
00:08:04 This kind of transmission through the air is what happens normally in pandemonia, so we tried to understand that...
00:08:15 By looking at this bird flu virus. But this is a relatively dangerous flu virus. We manipulated the virus...
00:08:24 In well-secured labs, of course, and it became not only pathogenic but also transmissible.
00:08:34 This was remarkable, because it was the first demonstration of how a bird flu virus...
00:08:39 Becomes transmissible between mammals. We were eager to publish our results. But during the peer-review process...
00:08:53 The viruses we manipulated were evaluated as being too susceptible to misuse by terrorists, for biological weapons.
00:09:01 The US government tried to withhold the publication of our data, method and results.
00:09:14 This should not be possible in science. We work in a transparent environment, so we share our results with our fellow scientists...
00:09:24 to help propagate science further, and to prevent the outbreak of pandemic viruses in the future.
00:09:32 The only way to do that is by sharing all information, by cooperation, and understanding how these viral transmissions work.
00:09:42 Subsequently there were global discussions that not only the Americans had to be aware of this issue...
00:09:50 But also the World Health Organisation. In 2012 they recommended to publish our study in all its glory...
00:10:05 So that the field of virology and flu research would be able to thrive.
00:10:10 (interviewer) But this was not quite a convenient period for you.
00:10:15 Indeed, it had quite some impact. If a government thinks that you are in possession of a biological weapon...
00:10:22 Then intelligence services will come by, security services, to ensure that the virus stays in the lab.
00:10:32 But it is not a weapon, it is an object of scientific inquiry. The virulency and transmissibility...
00:10:39 are being exaggerated by the lay media. But meausures were taken. You are being secured...
00:10:47 The deep freezer files were protected, computers were screened, too see whether terrorists looked over your shoulder
00:10:57 As a scientist, you seldom have experiences like this, and you do not want to have them again.
00:11:01 (interview) It influenced your private life directly as well.
00:11:04 It influences your private life, yes. For example, we had to travel all around the globe...
00:11:13 To meet the World Health Organisation, the US government. This means being away from home a lot.
00:11:21 And if you are at home, with wife and children, the police is patrolling your street to check up on you.
00:11:28 (interviewer) Is this still bothering you?
00:11:31 No, since the summer of 2012 it is quiet. There are still global discussions about the topic, and about changing laws...
00:11:49 but my private life is quiet again.
00:11:53 (interview) But I understood that in this period, you were also threatened.
00:11:58 Yes, on internet there were people threatening me and my family, saying things one wouldn't wish to one's enemy.
00:12:12 (interviewer) What is it that makes people react so ferociously?
00:12:16 Most people lack understanding of this subject. The American media said that we made a biological weapon...
00:12:29 and that if it would escape my lab, half of the world's population would cease to exist within months.
00:12:37 If you spread this kind of false information, then I can imagine that people become uneasy.
00:12:46 The fact that we were not allowed to share our data caused a disproportional exaggeration of our research...
00:12:55 in the American press, and that trickles down to The Netherlands. And some lay men think...
00:13:03 that they have enough knowledge of the facts, while these facts are not even on the table.
00:13:09 But they apparently know enough of these facts to call to harm me.
00:13:13 (interviewer) What are your reflections on that period?
00:13:16 It was an incredibly worrisome time in my academic career. One of my biggest scientific successes...
00:13:28 Evokes so much controversy, that one almost thinks that not having that success would have been better.
00:13:38 It was a worrisome period. Yet, we learned a lot from it, it stimulated our research, that would not have been possible otherwise.
00:13:56 (interviewer) A new lab has been built. It is extremely well-secured, isn't it?
00:14:02 Yes, because of public uneasiness about viruses, the attention by the lay press and politicians.
00:14:18 You see that in the last 10 years the rules concerning biosafety and biosecurity in labs are becoming more strict.
00:14:30 The terrorist attacks in the US contributed to this development. My research funds are mainly coming from the US.
00:14:37 Which means that I have to comply to the US rules, and these are becoming more strict.
00:14:42 The result is that I am working in a bunker, to keep dangerous people out. It is inconvenient, but apparently necessary.
00:14:58 (interviewer) But security measures are also necessary to keep the virus in the lab.
00:15:01 Yes, we work under biosafety and biosecurity conditions.
00:15:06 Biosafety means keeping dangerous viruses in the lab, biosecurity means keeping dangerous people out.
00:15:15 We do not want our lab workers to become infected. Fortunately this is kind of impossible in our lab...
00:15:23 because of all these layers of biosafety management, we can guarantee the security of our employees.
00:15:29 Experiments are conducted in hermetically sealed cabinets. Our people are protected from infections.
00:15:41 (interviewer) You have a top-notch laboratory, the lab is globally acknowledged, why is that?
00:15:51 I think that the multidisciplinary character of our research in Rotterdam...
00:15:58 (interviewer) Sorry, let me please ask the question again.
00:16:01 (interviewer) Your lab is globally acknowledged, what is the reason behind this?
00:16:06 I think that especially the multidisciplinarity of our research is quite unmatched.
00:16:14 We have experts in the ecology of wild animals, who observe animals in the wild...
00:16:25 but we also have pathologists, animal experimenters, molecular bioligists, geneticists...
00:16:32 All this expertise merges in our research group, which allows us to answer all questions in virology. This renders us unique.
00:16:45 (interviewer) Is your assistance demanded in case of trouble?
00:16:50 Yes, there are virus outbreaks somewhere on the globe every year, or every few years...
00:16:55 last year in the Netherlands in poultry, we had a H5N8 bird flu outbreak.
00:16:59 But we are also called-for in case of trouble in Bangladesh, Indonesia, Georgia...
00:17:09 to assist the locals in answering research questions, but we also provide advice...
00:17:17 in case of an outbreak. We are happy to do that, we do it a lot, almost every year.
00:17:26 (interviewer) So is your research carried out secretly, or is it public?
00:17:30 The research of my group is completely public, we work in academics, not in an army base.
00:17:37 We work with scientists and students from across the globe, this means that our research...
00:17:43 is carried out transparently. From the start, that is, from annoucing experiments, applying for funds...
00:17:51 to publication, and giving lectures. Every detail will be shared and communicated to the rest of the world.
00:18:01 (interviewer) If we look to the future, what will be the role of viruses? How can we control them?
00:18:11 Well, viruses prove to be quite comprehensible after a bit of research.
00:18:18 After 25 years of research on AIDS, we can treat AIDS with anti-viral medicines.
00:18:24 (interviewer) Let us wait for the plane to pass... So, if we look to the future...
00:18:32 (interviewer) what can we expect of viruses in the future? In what way can we use them?
00:18:39 A sufficient amount of research allows us to control viruses.
00:18:45 We eradicated some global viruses already: smallpox for example, does not exist anymore.
00:18:51 Other infectious diseases are treatable quite well, like AIDS, or hepatitis.
00:18:57 We anticipate flu viruses with vaccins, but they are not yet functioning optimal.
00:19:04 They provide at best 80% protection. But my research group and others around the globe are working very hard...
00:19:14 to design vaccins that provide 100% protection, and protect you from all other flu variants found in nature.
00:19:26 If we have those, then in principle there is no need to die because of the flu.
00:19:33 (interviewer) But can we predict the evolution of these viruses?
00:19:37 Flu viruses, just like many other viruses, evolve incredibly fast. You become resilient to them...
00:19:48 but after a few years, you will see that the virus can infect you again because it secretly changed a little bit.
00:19:56 This is why viruses return every winter; despite your earlier infections and resilience, they have changed slightly...
00:20:04 relative to your last infection. So once in, say, 10 years, you become infected.
00:20:12 We are currently researching whether we can make vaccins for the most conserved outer parts of viruses...
00:20:21 so that the virus cannot escape anymore. We try to target the crucial proteins, that are so crucial...
00:20:32 that when you change them, the virus will become crippled. We are currently working hard on that.
00:20:39 So hopefully, this will stop viruses from escaping our immune system.
00:20:46 (interviewer) What will all of this mean for us?
00:20:48 That the groups that face risks, and are vaccinated pre-emptively, people with asthma, diabetes, elderly people...
00:20:57 That they do not need to die because of the flu. We see that flu epidemics every year and world wide...
00:21:05 result in about 500 million casualties, that is quite a number. In principle this is preventable in the future.
00:21:17 People with this kind of vaccin against flu, but also other respiratory problems, will become much older.
00:21:27 And perhaps most important, they will also be healthier in their longer lives.
00:21:43 (interviewer) Can we redo the last part? What will all of this mean for us?
00:21:51 All those patients that are suffering diabetes...
00:22:17 These birds are quite noisy, they even produce more noise than I can!
00:22:21 (interviewer) We are not only conquering the world of the viruses but also with the viruses, right?
00:22:27 Yes, the growth of knowledge in virology enables us to use viruses to increase public heath.
00:22:36 The AIDS-virus, HIV, is well understood. We know exactly which parts of it we can remove, replace...
00:22:45 so that the virus becomes completely innocuous, and usable as vehicle.
00:22:51 The AIDS-virus is used to cure patients with immune deficiencies. These people have a defective gene...
00:23:02 And by using a HIV-virus that carries a correct copy of that gene, we can cure people with viruses..
00:23:12 viruses that would have killed us 25 years ago.
00:23:17 Similar attempts are made to use viruses against cancer, to repair other gen deficiencies...
00:23:26 or to use them as medicine-carriers, that can deliver medicines to exact locations in human bodies.
00:23:36 (interviewer) So you are kind of using the natural properties of viruses.
00:23:40 Yes, the diversity of viruses is enormous. They all have their own particular properties...
00:23:46 and we can pick the viruses with the properties that are most benificient for us.
00:23:52 Then we manipulate the viruses so that they become harmless to us...
00:23:58 but at the same time keep the properties that we need to transport genes or medicines to specific locations.
00:24:06 (interviewer) So you use viruses to transport genes to exact locations? How does that work?
00:24:15 A virus is basically a globule of fat, which contains genetic material. We can manipulate that.
00:24:25 We can remove non-essential parts, but we can also remove the infective parts...
00:24:33 the removed parts can be replaced with genes of interest. For example, a correct gene for a defective one.
00:24:45 (interviewer) And that means a cure?
00:24:48 Then we infect the patient with a virus, that we rendered harmless, actually a virus that cures you...
00:24:59 because it will multiply in your cells, and will inject a correct version of a gen where there used to be deficiences.
00:25:11 (interviewer) This is quite a special future for humans and viruses, isn't it?
00:25:16 The technology is actually still in its infancy, for we have been working for more than 25 years...
00:25:24 on gene therapy, viral vehicles, to cure people. The last few years there has been an enourmous development...
00:25:34 with viruses that are totally harmless to humans and animals, and that are easy to produce and inject.
00:25:44 Viruses that we can use to cure patients that are seriously ill. Hopefully in the future also for cancer.
00:25:50 Currently the first cancer medicines are available, but these do not work for some aggresive types...
00:25:59 prostate cancer, brain tumors. We are working hard on this: manipulating viruses to cure these diseases.
00:26:11 (interviewer) So if you look to your field of inquiry, what are your wildest dreams?
00:26:19 That ultimately, we will be able to become older in a healthy way. So that means...
00:26:28 without infections of the resipiratory system, without cancer.
00:26:34 We will achieve that, in the coming decennia.
00:26:40 Among other things, we will achieve this by using the viruses that used to infect us.
00:26:46 But by all these manipulations, they will rather cure us in the future. We can use them...
00:26:52 as vehicles for vaccins, as therapy for cancer, and other genetic deficiences.
TV Get inspired and watch tv episodes of The Mind of the Universe, made by Dutch public broadcaster VPRO
  • Browse through over 30 hours of interviews
  • Download the interviews, including subtitles
  • Remix, re-use and edit under CC-BY-SA license
  • Start exploring