1 00:00:00,01 --> 00:00:12,71 Now the number. He didn't have her number I put it in the email that I sent. You didn't get my email that I didn't see. 2 00:00:14,59 --> 00:00:21,26 And it's good to see you too so I hear you had some time with your grandkids Yeah I did that with us with our great 3 00:00:21,27 --> 00:00:27,22 grandmother she's young knows a lot of planning a great great deal of fun I was goofing around with them 4 00:00:27,23 --> 00:00:30,94 and chasing that was they played with their car one year and so forth 5 00:00:31,19 --> 00:00:35,49 and listen to this her house which was quite nice my three Yeah I. 6 00:00:36,52 --> 00:00:38,75 Think they took off a little bit for a couple hours 7 00:00:38,76 --> 00:00:45,71 and we thought then you only had his play live you know Ryan Ryan thank you Ryan OK. 8 00:00:47,69 --> 00:01:01,03 What was the plan it was allowed Korea OK Sophocles and take any and taking over. And he did well. Well OK. So. 9 00:01:02,18 --> 00:01:06,79 What are we here to do well to talk a bit about. 10 00:01:08,57 --> 00:01:15,79 Science and religion I guess and your thoughts about science and religion and my thoughts and our discussion OK. 11 00:01:17,53 --> 00:01:21,84 I don't know where do we start with science or really with religion Oh well 12 00:01:21,85 --> 00:01:27,71 or maybe we can start with well part part of it is because of the work that I do right is it's on the intersection of 13 00:01:27,72 --> 00:01:31,72 the two and involves of pollution and so forth 14 00:01:31,73 --> 00:01:38,56 and so that that's perhaps something that that you have thoughts about in terms of evolution Oh I have wanted to 15 00:01:38,57 --> 00:01:48,2 thought it out so we can we can start with how all discussion OK so you're interface His between science and. 16 00:01:49,76 --> 00:01:59,98 Philosophy. And religion right OK. OK so so. 17 00:02:00,22 --> 00:02:04,73 We can talk live look at first but your thoughts about evolution we can have a discussion about evolution 18 00:02:05,54 --> 00:02:09,27 and Christianity versus the views I'm working on 19 00:02:09,28 --> 00:02:21,11 and so forth Well I think I come at it from a perspective of science therapy. And religion and. 20 00:02:22,89 --> 00:02:27,91 The Lord has given me some models over the years and I've use with my clients 21 00:02:28,55 --> 00:02:36,16 and have been profoundly helpful to them and so what you've done 22 00:02:36,34 --> 00:02:40,35 and the work that you've done has been very important to me personally 23 00:02:41,23 --> 00:02:54,78 and I've if it's helped me to think about things very differently. And I appreciate that I appreciate the. 24 00:02:55,85 --> 00:03:10,16 Originality of what you've done and I recognize that. The work that you've done has been. It's been done with. 25 00:03:13,36 --> 00:03:21,96 It had to be done persistently. You've always had a I mean you were born with a long attention span. 26 00:03:24,05 --> 00:03:32,92 Your mother and I have remarked about that a lot but this is one of the things I think that that word is used to. 27 00:03:34,89 --> 00:03:45,69 Give you all your insights. And that you're blessed and I and I we marvel at that really appreciate it OK. 28 00:03:46,77 --> 00:03:59,98 This far is the. The business about evolution is concerned. What you have done in my opinion. Is that you've provided. 29 00:04:00,5 --> 00:04:15,36 An ontology. That makes it possible for. A born again Christian and it. To operate in the same direction. And. 30 00:04:16,47 --> 00:04:26,12 The model so that you know that you have come up with that you've used are powerful and to be in that. 31 00:04:27,3 --> 00:04:40,13 It goes counter to. The ontology that is has basically had a monopoly. In our world and that's physicalism. 32 00:04:41,2 --> 00:04:50,23 And time but you've you've proven you're not providing an alternative to that right which I certainly appreciate. 33 00:04:51,33 --> 00:05:03,35 And as far as therapy is concerned I see this opening up the way for integration helping people to integrate which is a 34 00:05:03,36 --> 00:05:06,1 very healthy faith psychologically. 35 00:05:07,14 --> 00:05:16,35 And so I've been kind of working on that aspect of your work right OK and enjoying it very much. 36 00:05:17,37 --> 00:05:24,71 I'm I'm in the process of trying to put her all together and make sense of OK right now. But. 37 00:05:26,6 --> 00:05:30,17 So I come at it from a science perspective figured. 38 00:05:31,77 --> 00:05:38,43 Born Again Christian perspective the therapeutic course perspective and what Or I've been. 39 00:05:39,96 --> 00:05:49,53 Working is in models that integrate OK So you asked the question that's the answer for me right yeah 40 00:05:49,54 --> 00:05:52,3 and I can understand that not all of G. 41 00:05:52,6 --> 00:05:59,94 That comes out of my work is very very you know I mean able to a Christian ontology in the sense that. 42 00:06:00,01 --> 00:06:06,45 You don't like physicalism and I'm showing the effect with physicalism is false so that really. 43 00:06:07,56 --> 00:06:11,34 Does work pretty well there but I use evolution and you know 44 00:06:11,35 --> 00:06:18,25 and I know we've had discussions about evolution that were for you're not in in favor of abortion so any thoughts about 45 00:06:18,26 --> 00:06:24,27 that I'm using yeah that the theory of evolution itself pretty strongly to the company's ninety Classic list I've 46 00:06:24,58 --> 00:06:38,29 pondered when you took that tack I pondered. What was going on there but what you did was to. Show that. 47 00:06:40,59 --> 00:06:51,46 Truth and fitness are are are not necessarily the same thing right and that truth will go to extinction when. 48 00:06:53,36 --> 00:07:02,13 One fitness fitness will be their fitness will win OK. And. But. 49 00:07:03,93 --> 00:07:15,62 This is the this is the the problem the context in which you're operating it's not big enough OK because the context 50 00:07:15,63 --> 00:07:21,5 nice to be expanded because there is a spiritual side to life OK 51 00:07:22,43 --> 00:07:34,53 and that spiritual side is a term that the context of the. Physical context is going to pass away for all of us OK. 52 00:07:35,58 --> 00:07:45,05 But there is a spiritual context and I'm a large but help me do it well a mile that puts that all together 53 00:07:45,76 --> 00:07:59,98 and evolution then becomes. A subset or a one way of looking at what things are OK and I you turn. 54 00:08:00,01 --> 00:08:19,99 Beyond to that when you. Shared with me about the concept of the evolution of. Zero. Basically life OK. 55 00:08:21,76 --> 00:08:37,39 And so to me evolution is a result of limitation of perspective OK So the first back did needs to be bigger OK And I 56 00:08:37,4 --> 00:08:39,82 think that I've got some thoughts about that 57 00:08:39,87 --> 00:08:48,66 and I'm working on that right so I don't see that there is a problem with evolution I just think that it's. 58 00:08:50,71 --> 00:08:57,27 A limitation of a bigger Oh concept right OK. 59 00:08:58,42 --> 00:09:03,96 That's that's going to hear so you ask Right right that's so it's 60 00:09:04,04 --> 00:09:11,99 and I agree with that eventually this theory of consciously agents could have therapeutic implications I mean if we 61 00:09:12,00 --> 00:09:14,69 actually understand the principles by which consciousness evolves and 62 00:09:15,47 --> 00:09:22,63 and so forth then it could actually lead to better understanding of our unconscious dynamics and you know 63 00:09:22,64 --> 00:09:25,92 and new new therapeutic techniques certainly can 64 00:09:25,93 --> 00:09:31,92 and it certainly is an ontology that's compatible more compatible with many religious points of view much more than 65 00:09:31,93 --> 00:09:32,66 physicalism right 66 00:09:32,67 --> 00:09:41,28 and so rejecting physicalism does give many religious groups that what they really prize the most which is a different 67 00:09:41,29 --> 00:09:50,65 ontology and a non physicalist ontology Well like I said the different ontology is crucial record and in my opinion. 68 00:09:51,77 --> 00:10:03,48 But leaving the just leaving the place. At the evolutionary. Respective. Is only. 69 00:10:04,66 --> 00:10:10,72 A very limited view of a bigger picture and in the bigger picture. 70 00:10:12,03 --> 00:10:22,39 When one more operating a part prove God then the further we are apart from God the last truth we have access to so 71 00:10:22,4 --> 00:10:32,78 basically I see evolution as be what you cut you can come to when your assumption is that God is not. 72 00:10:36,19 --> 00:10:43,16 Thinking OK So you're saying that if we take an atheistic position then we'll come to evolution Yeah. 73 00:10:45,71 --> 00:10:53,25 Right now I mean that's one. Proceeding OK. But perhaps not the only again for example C.S. 74 00:10:53,26 --> 00:11:04,5 Lewis also believed in evolution. Yeah well. Scripture does not. You think it doesn't know. The. 75 00:11:05,61 --> 00:11:14,4 Creation and not evolution and it's very clear studying the scripture as a born again Christian. 76 00:11:16,22 --> 00:11:23,1 Spiritual things are spiritually discerned at spectrum and that's been my experience. 77 00:11:25,01 --> 00:11:34,85 As I've had a chance to walk with him more. What he's done is to. Put things put knowledge of spiritual context. 78 00:11:36,45 --> 00:11:42,54 When you put knowledge into spiritual context I mean I didn't quite say spiritual I'm talking about born again 79 00:11:42,58 --> 00:11:51,01 Christian Biblical context then you get a different understanding. Then putting it in a human context. 80 00:11:52,58 --> 00:11:59,74 And evolution is knowledge that's been put in a human context not a god the context. 81 00:12:01,3 --> 00:12:09,78 And so you know it's it's true when you're in this context I mean you can you could come to that conclusion 82 00:12:09,79 --> 00:12:17,54 when you're in. A kernel context but you can't come to that conclusion in the biblical context. 83 00:12:19,46 --> 00:12:25,1 And I agree that in Ultimately one could argue that I've used evolution. 84 00:12:26,38 --> 00:12:27,79 To show that evolution is false 85 00:12:27,8 --> 00:12:32,34 and there for a shot myself in the foot right a cut myself into a logical bind I start with evolution 86 00:12:32,78 --> 00:12:34,67 and up destroying physicalism 87 00:12:35,37 --> 00:12:43,57 but evolution in that in biology in involves belief in physicalism there I actually have a lot of fun with that writes 88 00:12:43,9 --> 00:12:44,63 so but 89 00:12:44,64 --> 00:12:50,47 but of course if I'm actually caught in that kind of logical paradox that I've actually destroyed myself in the process 90 00:12:50,54 --> 00:12:58,59 but I know you're not right right I'm actually using just the abstract algorithm of evolution you know the what that 91 00:12:59,23 --> 00:13:02,6 Dawkins call Universal Darwinism to 92 00:13:02,87 --> 00:13:08,55 and that's what's kept you can evolutionary gain through I use that to destroy the physicalism of of evolution 93 00:13:08,56 --> 00:13:15,57 but I guess so I agree that you know many religions including Christianity would love the intelligent that's coming out 94 00:13:15,58 --> 00:13:21,12 of this but I guess the place we're there is a difference between the scientific attitude 95 00:13:21,13 --> 00:13:25,83 and the religious attitude on it is actually in the attitude toward. 96 00:13:27,94 --> 00:13:37,01 Infallible scriptures right in the attitude of science is always the attitude I could be wrong everything I say I could 97 00:13:37,02 --> 00:13:45,13 be wrong whereas the an attitude that you often see in religions is you know our book is absolutely right letter for 98 00:13:45,14 --> 00:13:53,15 letter perfect and couldn't be wrong so that So I think that what I'm offering is half what Christianity would like 99 00:13:53,32 --> 00:13:59,79 and half what it wouldn't like right because the other half of what half is physicalism is dead which is I think. 100 00:14:00,41 --> 00:14:03,83 What percent really likes the other half is. 101 00:14:05,54 --> 00:14:12,14 There are no books that can't be questioned and no words 102 00:14:12,15 --> 00:14:16,51 and books that that shouldn't be be question so that you know that and 103 00:14:16,52 --> 00:14:24,32 when someone says that they have no word from God to two that we're in a position to even question that so Suppose 104 00:14:24,55 --> 00:14:29,67 suppose I came out and said I've got a word from God And it's it's absolutely. 105 00:14:30,79 --> 00:14:37,45 Unconscionable for women to talk in church they shouldn't even be able to ask questions I said that's my word from God. 106 00:14:39,16 --> 00:14:46,3 If it's not in agreement with the word it's not a word from God That's right so is if I said that you would feel like 107 00:14:46,31 --> 00:14:53,51 well you know I'm claiming that it's a word from God But you know it's probably just me I would toss it out you toss it 108 00:14:53,52 --> 00:15:03,08 out now you know we're my nation to. Examine all anything that comes as a word from God. 109 00:15:04,25 --> 00:15:10,37 And the three There are three tests given enough first period his fourteen. 110 00:15:11,47 --> 00:15:18,5 Percent three that say first of all a word from God is going to be edified is going to build you up 111 00:15:19,01 --> 00:15:24,38 and not tear you down and secondly it's going to encourage you in the faith 112 00:15:24,66 --> 00:15:31,99 and not discourage from the right number three it's going to be covered which means it's going to be appropriate for 113 00:15:32,00 --> 00:15:43,27 the aid that faces you right now OK So those are tests that were required as as boarding increases baptize an illusion 114 00:15:43,28 --> 00:15:49,46 period to use to determine that there are there are three other tests 115 00:15:50,28 --> 00:15:55,57 and one of them is been mentioned that is it is from God it's going to agree with Scripture 116 00:15:56,52 --> 00:15:59,97 but also if it's going to have a witness of the. 117 00:16:00,12 --> 00:16:09,38 If spirit inside you're going to know inside that the Holy Spirit is saying yeah so there is a witness of this fair 118 00:16:09,51 --> 00:16:11,01 agreement with the word 119 00:16:11,35 --> 00:16:21,18 and then how God works so he's turning his providential dealing out in our life to situations that we've come to have 120 00:16:21,19 --> 00:16:21,97 to deal with 121 00:16:22,55 --> 00:16:31,84 when all three of those wind up then you have a high degree of confidence that you're being guided by God OK Now most 122 00:16:31,85 --> 00:16:32,53 Christians. 123 00:16:33,98 --> 00:16:40,87 Particularly the ones that we deal with don't have a clue about that kind of stuff OK but the 124 00:16:40,97 --> 00:16:46,3 but the one that I proposed you know that's like I'm here I say that you know it's it's really you know appropriate for 125 00:16:46,31 --> 00:16:53,88 women to ever talk to even ask questions in church that would sort of fail all those all those tests Yeah so it's not a 126 00:16:53,89 --> 00:16:59,49 word from Riyadh. But it's first Corinthians fourteen thirty four word for word. 127 00:17:00,98 --> 00:17:06,89 But the very same chapter you quoted for the principles for what is it worked from God In verse thirty four the very 128 00:17:06,9 --> 00:17:13,09 same chapter says exactly this Paul said women may not speak at all in the church 129 00:17:13,59 --> 00:17:16,89 and they're not allowed to ask questions it's not appropriate 130 00:17:17,37 --> 00:17:20,44 and he said if anybody wants to question me this is the Word of God. 131 00:17:21,68 --> 00:17:27,47 Now my own attitude about it is that it does fail the very principles that you proposed 132 00:17:28,02 --> 00:17:34,21 and that therefore that particular passage is even though it's word for word there Paul says for First Corinthians 133 00:17:34,22 --> 00:17:43,33 fourteen thirty four women cannot talk in church to their credit no church obeys that every church says effectively 134 00:17:43,5 --> 00:17:49,6 forget that that's not the Word of God It's the word of a man who needs psychotherapy he had some issues about women he 135 00:17:49,61 --> 00:17:50,18 needed help 136 00:17:50,78 --> 00:17:57,99 and so that's that's the kind of attitude I'm proposing about looking at the Bible itself right that we have to take 137 00:17:58,00 --> 00:17:59,98 the parts take a burst by worst when. 138 00:18:00,01 --> 00:18:04,15 Says Love your neighbor as yourself fabulous I'm all for that but 139 00:18:04,16 --> 00:18:10,68 when Paul says women cannot speak in church to their credit no church listens to him every church says forget that 140 00:18:11,18 --> 00:18:19,12 and so I think churches are in fact doing what I'm suggesting which is to take each verse way according to the kind of 141 00:18:19,13 --> 00:18:24,75 quitter and you were talking about and sometimes rejecting the false as because it's unlucky we had issues 142 00:18:24,87 --> 00:18:28,66 or he was mistaking a cultural norm for the Word of God. 143 00:18:29,76 --> 00:18:37,44 Which is another cultural norms are not the Word of God To start I don't know what you would think about that kind of 144 00:18:37,45 --> 00:18:45,73 argument well. What I would share about that is that the Old Testament and the New Testament. 145 00:18:46,75 --> 00:18:51,49 If you look at them they don't agree err I mean in the test 146 00:18:51,5 --> 00:18:57,19 but yeah if you didn't obey the law you know after Abraham if you didn't obey the law 147 00:18:57,23 --> 00:19:09,38 or Moses did obey the law then you were dealt with harshly OK. But everything changed at the cross and. 148 00:19:11,08 --> 00:19:23,75 Jesus took care of all of our sin that's all take care of past present and future and. That's scriptural. And so. 149 00:19:25,33 --> 00:19:37,24 You know you have to take. Scripture and. And have and deal with the Holy Spirit taking into consideration. Culture. 150 00:19:39,13 --> 00:19:45,36 And the understanding of it God was working in right there. I mean. 151 00:19:46,38 --> 00:19:50,96 For us the Bible says certain things but we have to take that knowledge 152 00:19:51,19 --> 00:19:59,12 and put it put me in the context of together understanding and so. 153 00:20:00,1 --> 00:20:08,39 You know we've all seen in short a war you got so we'll have a problem with it so that for that verse from Paul so my 154 00:20:08,4 --> 00:20:12,68 attitude would be that. I learned a lot of good things from Saint Paul. 155 00:20:13,94 --> 00:20:20,92 And but he's a human being and he had cultural influences and he also made mistakes then he wrote them down 156 00:20:21,46 --> 00:20:26,24 and I think you know religious people can just be intelligent about and take a book like the Bible 157 00:20:26,62 --> 00:20:29,21 and look for the things in it that will really help them 158 00:20:29,62 --> 00:20:33,64 and then see other stuff like Paul saying women should be silent and say you know what. 159 00:20:34,81 --> 00:20:36,49 At best that was a cultural norm. 160 00:20:37,64 --> 00:20:41,93 But certainly not the Word of God and it's certainly not something we should be doing today but 161 00:20:42,06 --> 00:20:48,73 but if we go there then then what that really does is open up the entire Bible for that kind of I think very 162 00:20:48,74 --> 00:20:52,35 intelligent discourse where you you look at say this makes sense 163 00:20:53,02 --> 00:20:57,43 and this doesn't go according to the kinds of contouring that you talked about OK. 164 00:20:59,41 --> 00:21:07,75 The problem is trying to understand without the benefit of the teaching 165 00:21:07,76 --> 00:21:13,78 and the Holy Spirit without the Holy Spirit we're pretty well screwed. 166 00:21:15,28 --> 00:21:25,19 As far as that's concerned OK we have to we have to have the Holy Spirit we have to be baptized in the only spear in 167 00:21:25,2 --> 00:21:29,6 order to have the power and get the understanding from God. 168 00:21:31,66 --> 00:21:31,99 And 169 00:21:32,07 --> 00:21:38,86 and the understanding you can have through understanding just same time one human understanding one God the understanding 170 00:21:39,61 --> 00:21:39,98 OK. 171 00:21:41,66 --> 00:21:47,29 What do you mean by do you actually hope at some point to have some kind of reparation line between science 172 00:21:47,3 --> 00:21:52,7 and religion and I think that both sides have something to gain in the process 173 00:21:52,71 --> 00:21:59,98 and something very very difficult to lose for science it's giving up the physicalism and that's the part that I thing. 174 00:22:00,53 --> 00:22:03,54 The religious side really like this letting go of the physicalism. 175 00:22:04,76 --> 00:22:13,46 But then what science has is the advantage of the methodology of science which is never accept anything always question 176 00:22:13,47 --> 00:22:19,37 everything you can even if it Einstein said it is not the truth right it's it's it's an interesting idea to take verb 177 00:22:19,38 --> 00:22:25,66 or seriously to examine So there's a freedom from you at least in the ideal sense of freedom from dogmatism of course 178 00:22:25,67 --> 00:22:28,79 any individual scientist is dogmatic about their own theories 179 00:22:29,03 --> 00:22:35,15 but the science as a whole is not because the other scientists are very happy to tell you that you're wrong so as a as 180 00:22:35,16 --> 00:22:43,09 a discipline science as this non dogmatic aspect so that's what I think is really powerful about bringing the two 181 00:22:43,1 --> 00:22:52,74 together bringing the the non-dogmatic But you know more let's put these things out just as ideas that we can discuss 182 00:22:52,78 --> 00:22:55,69 and refine so that it's a dynamic process 183 00:22:56,31 --> 00:23:02,39 and that's so that's that's different from what most religious traditions have a right as it's mostly this is a 184 00:23:02,4 --> 00:23:08,88 scripture every word of it can't be questioned and so so I feel like from my point of view. 185 00:23:09,99 --> 00:23:11,86 The way I want to move forward is. 186 00:23:13,25 --> 00:23:18,31 To the point where I'm letting go of the physicalism which religion's like but I'm also letting go of the dogmatism 187 00:23:18,55 --> 00:23:21,95 and saying you know every like every verse in the Bible is something that I can look out 188 00:23:22,24 --> 00:23:28,84 and say this makes sense for this doesn't we should discuss it and and then move forward 189 00:23:28,88 --> 00:23:31,25 or not depending on what we what we see in it 190 00:23:32,05 --> 00:23:39,64 and if we have that kind of proper mud then I actually think we would have a evolving spirituality where we actually. 191 00:23:41,16 --> 00:23:49,32 Can move very very much more quickly forward in terms of understanding who we are as you beings that are not just space 192 00:23:49,33 --> 00:23:59,2 time bound beings something you know conscious I agree with you. And. The problem is that the universe. 193 00:24:00,01 --> 00:24:09,48 The universe as we know it is mathematical OK but. That's not all university is. 194 00:24:10,51 --> 00:24:16,61 Right that's not all there is there's the mathematical aspect there's the linguistic aspect 195 00:24:16,62 --> 00:24:25,3 and then there's the purpose of the whole thing right OK And that's one of the earth reasons why I like your model of 196 00:24:25,31 --> 00:24:35,00 conscious agents is because the pathway between experience and. Just decision. 197 00:24:38,24 --> 00:24:46,37 And then the pathway between decision and and the world actually the experience those. 198 00:24:47,41 --> 00:24:51,78 Are three different aspects and require three different. 199 00:24:53,51 --> 00:24:59,55 Markovian kernels right as you put it like OK From my perspective three different models. 200 00:25:01,35 --> 00:25:05,82 Because they're different functions in right and you cannot. 201 00:25:06,87 --> 00:25:12,49 You can get a third of it with mathematics right but only a third. 202 00:25:14,4 --> 00:25:21,63 Of the other third is a linguistics and then the third the cows most of all his purpose 203 00:25:22,12 --> 00:25:28,44 and the only way you can get purpose. Is to check with God. 204 00:25:29,5 --> 00:25:40,11 Because he's the one that's green it is all in and we've been created with a purpose for a purpose. And perception. 205 00:25:41,67 --> 00:25:50,42 Without purpose. Is meaningless perception with a purpose is meaningful. OK. 206 00:25:51,46 --> 00:25:59,98 And what is the purpose with what we're saying is the purpose that. Well the are our purpose is to know. 207 00:26:00,01 --> 00:26:13,13 God and enjoy him pervert. You know Joy is a very positive trait right. So enjoyment. 208 00:26:15,37 --> 00:26:21,66 And that's one place where my model hasn't gone which is the purpose side of things I'm still not there I'm thinking 209 00:26:22,00 --> 00:26:27,04 I've been thinking about that but from an evolutionary point of view which is you know. 210 00:26:28,08 --> 00:26:31,71 The standard I'm talking evolutionary psychology kind of point of view. 211 00:26:34,18 --> 00:26:38,91 And also just evolutionary biology more generally purpose comes down to. 212 00:26:41,06 --> 00:26:46,56 Taking actions that will allow you to survive long enough to reproduce. 213 00:26:48,29 --> 00:26:51,92 But and so then from that point of view all of our emotions 214 00:26:51,93 --> 00:26:57,19 and so forth have been shaped by evolution to guide us in ways that you know 215 00:26:57,2 --> 00:27:01,97 and to behave in ways that are adaptive so that we will survive long enough to reproduce 216 00:27:02,18 --> 00:27:06,84 and that's the notion of purpose within evolution ever evolution of evolutionary psychology 217 00:27:07,04 --> 00:27:14,5 but I myself don't feel comfortable that that's enough right because I feel like the evolution I mean I use 218 00:27:14,51 --> 00:27:16,86 evolutionary psychology I think it's really powerful framework 219 00:27:16,87 --> 00:27:24,98 and I actually think it will be very useful going forward for for therapy that that even with this inadequacies using 220 00:27:24,99 --> 00:27:33,11 evolutionary psychology to understand the roots of our emotions why we have anger why we are so angry at cheaters. 221 00:27:35,98 --> 00:27:38,19 Relationship between men and women and the different. 222 00:27:39,47 --> 00:27:41,63 Things that are going on there why men 223 00:27:41,64 --> 00:27:47,33 and women are so different a lot of that is understood by evolutionary psychology and can help if there be. 224 00:27:48,52 --> 00:27:51,9 And so I think the short term there will be an evolutionary. 225 00:27:53,28 --> 00:27:59,94 Psychotherapy coming out of evolutionary psychology that we really really insightful but but I still. 226 00:28:00,01 --> 00:28:03,08 Feel human beyond that will still need a deeper theory. 227 00:28:04,9 --> 00:28:11,29 But I see that happening over several decades and being a real win for for psychotherapy 228 00:28:11,3 --> 00:28:20,46 but then I want an even deeper understanding based because we don't yet I don't have a theory of evolution that it's 229 00:28:20,5 --> 00:28:24,46 based on conscious agents right so right now I'm just using the revolution as it's. 230 00:28:25,51 --> 00:28:32,53 In the physical stereo biological evolution I'm using that to show that the physicalist assumptions are false 231 00:28:33,16 --> 00:28:39,44 but what I have to do now and I haven't done it is so it's hard mathematical problem if an enormous is bad 232 00:28:39,45 --> 00:28:45,9 but at least it's a cause it's a it's a specific goal I've got which is to develop a mathematical model of the 233 00:28:45,91 --> 00:28:50,27 evolution of consciousness to understand what are the principal what is consciousness of all what's it about. 234 00:28:51,58 --> 00:28:58,22 Which then involves discussion of purpose you know so what is the reason for and why should conscious change at all 235 00:28:58,47 --> 00:29:00,94 but then to understand an evolution of consciousness 236 00:29:01,82 --> 00:29:06,69 and then take that evolution if I project it back whatever theory of evolution of consciousness I get 237 00:29:07,23 --> 00:29:13,98 but projected back into the space time interface of homo sapiens. Then actually get dark. 238 00:29:15,45 --> 00:29:21,17 Right then I should get back to standard Darwinian evolution if I do that so that would be a constraint that I would 239 00:29:21,3 --> 00:29:26,66 require on any theory of evolution of consciousness that a king with would be that that theory 240 00:29:26,87 --> 00:29:30,18 when I project it back into space time as we perceive it 241 00:29:31,1 --> 00:29:37,88 and matter would give us back standard Darwinian evolution which within that framework is quite well I think quite 242 00:29:37,89 --> 00:29:39,00 welcome confirmed 243 00:29:39,49 --> 00:29:46,17 but I don't yet have a theory of evolution of consciousness itself saw so I whereas in many other cases I can say you 244 00:29:46,18 --> 00:29:52,13 know I've not got the theorem to get the mathematics I can I can close the books on physicalism I can't close the books 245 00:29:52,14 --> 00:29:59,97 yet on a theory of purpose because I just haven't done that so so they're there I'm I don't have anything to offer back. 246 00:30:00,01 --> 00:30:04,11 Except to say that I don't have it and I'm very interested in pursuing it 247 00:30:04,12 --> 00:30:11,17 but I really I'm interested in pursuing it using a mathematical model as much as possible my feeling is that that 248 00:30:11,45 --> 00:30:12,27 eventually. 249 00:30:13,4 --> 00:30:21,69 Even spirituality can be in some sense an imperial enterprise where we actually have theories about consciousness Oh I 250 00:30:21,7 --> 00:30:25,05 agree and we could actually then go beyond that 251 00:30:25,06 --> 00:30:31,27 and that's why I think the you know having a different attitude toward the scriptures of all the religions not not just 252 00:30:31,28 --> 00:30:35,54 Christianity but an attitude of get inspiration were it makes sense 253 00:30:36,22 --> 00:30:39,81 and then take passages where they say women shouldn't talk 254 00:30:40,19 --> 00:30:45,69 and treat them as they should be treated as not to the Word of God for today that's definitely not what we should be 255 00:30:45,7 --> 00:30:45,98 doing 256 00:30:46,25 --> 00:30:52,65 and have that attitude towards the scriptures then I think we can actually have an evolutionary spirituality that were 257 00:30:52,66 --> 00:30:59,3 science and religion could actually meet and produce something that's really quite powerful the very human 258 00:30:59,31 --> 00:31:06,39 and yet very rigorous I will I'll thank you copying my model of your body to get far enough along what I know where I 259 00:31:06,4 --> 00:31:07,88 got the genes for Hanko models. 260 00:31:12,02 --> 00:31:23,03 So I agree with you and I recognize that So you know the problem about working on purpose is purpose is personal. 261 00:31:24,37 --> 00:31:31,65 Not mathematical Right OK So the purpose is outside the scope of mathematics. 262 00:31:32,68 --> 00:31:35,31 I mean you could have a purpose for mathematics. 263 00:31:36,83 --> 00:31:46,04 But purpose itself is outside the school it's too big an issue to be captured by mathematics OK. 264 00:31:47,44 --> 00:31:59,92 Linguistics is limited in that regard also OK Only God has purposed it out because he created us and. 265 00:32:00,54 --> 00:32:06,99 So therefore he's the one that can make everything work. 266 00:32:08,34 --> 00:32:14,87 You know and he has a purpose for our life whether we whether we seek that purpose 267 00:32:14,88 --> 00:32:24,9 or not is up to was he born transcripts are will OK but the purpose is there and their blessings that go with C. 268 00:32:24,91 --> 00:32:30,92 He Depor bas. I would agree that purpose is not itself mathematics. 269 00:32:32,02 --> 00:32:32,48 But I think 270 00:32:33,05 --> 00:32:38,75 but I would say also that you know my experience of the taste of chocolate is not mathematics Indeed I'm using 271 00:32:38,76 --> 00:32:41,82 mathematics to model conscious experiences and being. 272 00:32:42,97 --> 00:32:44,05 I think successful at it 273 00:32:44,06 --> 00:32:50,2 and I think eventually even though I agree that purpose itself is not mathematics if we understand. 274 00:32:51,26 --> 00:32:58,96 You get a deeper understanding of what purpose is then I can find mathematical correlates to to model that just like 275 00:32:59,00 --> 00:33:03,28 for example the space around us that you know is not mathematics 276 00:33:03,66 --> 00:33:12,78 but we can use Euclidean spaces you know our three to two model even though the mathematics isn't the space we can use 277 00:33:12,79 --> 00:33:18,99 to put in space and then we find out that that's not quite right if space really isn't Euclidean it's more Minkowsky 278 00:33:19,53 --> 00:33:24,77 and then we find out that's not right you know go from special to it to John relatively find out its remodelling 279 00:33:24,78 --> 00:33:25,32 and so forth 280 00:33:25,33 --> 00:33:30,71 and so what we do is we use the mathematics as a model of something that's not mathematics we know it's space is just 281 00:33:30,72 --> 00:33:33,29 space and as scientists 282 00:33:33,3 --> 00:33:40,18 and we use that to try to get at the deepest understanding we can with the help of the mathematics as a cognitive lever 283 00:33:40,19 --> 00:33:45,46 to help us go places you know conceptually that we might not be able to go without the mathematics 284 00:33:45,78 --> 00:33:49,17 and that's what I would hope with with purpose to have some deep intuitions 285 00:33:49,33 --> 00:33:52,61 and I'd be happy to get some from the Scriptures 286 00:33:52,62 --> 00:33:59,98 or over I can get them to get deeper into issues about purpose what it's about and then try to capture them in math. 287 00:34:00,01 --> 00:34:06,41 Batiks broad don't mistake the mathematics for the purpose it's mathematics is just a model in the same sense as if I 288 00:34:06,42 --> 00:34:09,26 have a simulation of the weather right a mathematical model of the weather 289 00:34:09,48 --> 00:34:15,24 and I come bring you into the computer room to show you my model you don't need an umbrella the simulation is not going 290 00:34:15,25 --> 00:34:17,95 to get you wet as it is just a simulation 291 00:34:17,96 --> 00:34:24,24 but it's nevertheless a very useful simulation of the other Nick actually be used care you know effectively to predict 292 00:34:24,5 --> 00:34:30,07 the future weather and so I don't mistake the mathematics itself for the purpose but I would love to get 293 00:34:30,63 --> 00:34:36,18 and this is again the I should have about all things that are taken as a spiritual where we take these concepts that 294 00:34:36,62 --> 00:34:38,88 for thousands of years have been only intuitive 295 00:34:39,64 --> 00:34:45,49 and we take those intuitions which I think you are a good starting point of fact all science starts with intuitions 296 00:34:45,75 --> 00:34:53,39 and then wrap as much mathematics as we can into it knowing full well that we're probably wrong the first time right 297 00:34:54,19 --> 00:34:58,13 space is not Euclidean it's not mentality it's probably not remodel it 298 00:34:58,36 --> 00:35:06,06 but every time we find out why we're wrong with our mathematics we learn and we in our own intuitions get multiply 299 00:35:06,07 --> 00:35:10,42 and so I'm hoping the same thing will happen ultimately in a more. 300 00:35:11,48 --> 00:35:18,38 Open almost scientific kind of spirituality where we're taking the concepts that have been viewed as completely you 301 00:35:18,39 --> 00:35:26,21 know off the off the table for mathematics put them on to the table start to develop strong mathematical models 302 00:35:26,53 --> 00:35:33,57 and try to make predictions even in terms of therapeutic contexts so if this is my mathematical model of purpose 303 00:35:33,96 --> 00:35:38,67 and this is a very human thing what does it tell me about interactions with people 304 00:35:38,68 --> 00:35:45,76 and psychotherapeutic And so ultimately this is a really scientific theory of this stuff where we don't mistake the 305 00:35:45,77 --> 00:35:48,42 mathematics for the purpose and the other aspects 306 00:35:48,43 --> 00:35:53,16 but we use it too as a cognitive lever we can actually bring science 307 00:35:53,17 --> 00:35:58,1 and religion together to really move things forward we can actually help people come be my wife 308 00:35:58,11 --> 00:35:59,98 and I hope there's a person for every done. 309 00:36:00,06 --> 00:36:13,69 That OK yeah that's Jesus Christ OK The he is the law he is the model for all of us for everything he is the truth OK 310 00:36:13,73 --> 00:36:21,15 so if we want to pursue truth then truth is a person it's not a thing OK. 311 00:36:22,29 --> 00:36:34,79 And so he came as a model but he came for a purpose and that was to provide a way for us who are natural sinners 312 00:36:34,8 --> 00:36:43,72 and who missed the mark. To have a way to. Be resolved or. 313 00:36:45,85 --> 00:36:53,59 Have our relationship with God the Father re stored Ridgeley And so that's why it's important to be a born again 314 00:36:53,6 --> 00:36:57,83 Christian there is only one way to get to God the Father. 315 00:36:59,47 --> 00:37:03,31 And that's through Jesus there is no other way period 316 00:37:04,31 --> 00:37:14,68 and it's a no I gree with you to take the man out this far as you know. But. But God goes further than that. 317 00:37:16,77 --> 00:37:19,25 You know why not go for the whole gusto. 318 00:37:20,34 --> 00:37:22,46 Right right well yeah 319 00:37:22,47 --> 00:37:28,27 and I certainly agree that there are probably in dodginess limits to it were a concept contiguous were. 320 00:37:29,39 --> 00:37:35,24 A species like any other species and we were finite we were expecting a boundary bright. 321 00:37:36,63 --> 00:37:41,87 Spiders can't learn physics and maybe we can't understand that you're pretty all right but with 322 00:37:41,88 --> 00:37:50,37 when we're born again as a christian those limitations don't last after we need this body. 323 00:37:52,04 --> 00:37:59,95 Blows those limitations are lifted. What I'm hoping for is though that. When we. 324 00:38:00,01 --> 00:38:08,73 Bring the mathematics to these issues that we can get to the place where we're making making mathematically precise 325 00:38:08,74 --> 00:38:16,28 predictions about. How we can grow as people. You've always people. 326 00:38:17,62 --> 00:38:19,41 Have better relationships and so forth 327 00:38:19,87 --> 00:38:25,89 and actually have a mathematically precise understanding of who we are as conscious beings 328 00:38:25,9 --> 00:38:31,91 and maybe hierarchies of conscious agents that will allow us to take our therapeutic and and. 329 00:38:33,24 --> 00:38:35,71 Social understanding to the to the next level 330 00:38:36,12 --> 00:38:43,67 but do so in a really rigorous fashion where we actually have ideas that we put out that we say I could be wrong about 331 00:38:43,68 --> 00:38:49,86 this so it's a very non-dogmatic attitude about this thing it's that saying you know even spirituality is an 332 00:38:49,87 --> 00:38:57,12 experimental science and we have our current ideas and our current ideas are the best we've got right now 333 00:38:57,65 --> 00:38:59,13 but there's a there's a D.P. 334 00:38:59,14 --> 00:39:04,64 Melody in the whole thing where we say you know what even the best that I understand right now I could be wrong on any 335 00:39:04,65 --> 00:39:14,19 point and then to then say so let's see we're we're might have be wrong on any things I'm saying. You. 336 00:39:15,25 --> 00:39:27,93 End up in presenting Jesus today there are three now three have acts that have to be fulfilled first to present Jesus 337 00:39:27,94 --> 00:39:35,19 today. There has to be love there has to be purity and there is to be power OK. 338 00:39:36,29 --> 00:39:44,13 Now you can if you can find a description of that the nine aspects of love in Galatians five twenty two 339 00:39:44,14 --> 00:39:46,21 and twenty three through this spirit. 340 00:39:47,62 --> 00:39:55,25 To the attitudes that lead to appear to be are described by nine be added in Matthew five. 341 00:39:58,05 --> 00:39:59,72 Check verses three to twelve. 342 00:40:01,31 --> 00:40:02,69 The gifts of the Holy Spirit 343 00:40:02,7 --> 00:40:08,9 and I guess totally spirit are described in First Corinthians twelve versus seven through a lot of it. 344 00:40:10,52 --> 00:40:16,91 Now if you if you take these and put them in the right sequence and and you make and make vectors out of them 345 00:40:17,71 --> 00:40:22,15 and in my case I've done it you take out you take out. 346 00:40:24,1 --> 00:40:27,98 The fruit you take is the attitude you take 347 00:40:27,99 --> 00:40:34,73 and you know if you put them together in the right sequence in the right way and you can represent. 348 00:40:35,8 --> 00:40:48,54 Christ appropriately OK now. When when Jesus was walking here he made it very clear to the ferrous. 349 00:40:49,7 --> 00:40:51,8 That they were whited simple curse. 350 00:40:53,00 --> 00:41:00,16 To it but they stood in the way of people getting their salvation they stood in the door 351 00:41:00,41 --> 00:41:02,6 and prevented people from getting through 352 00:41:03,25 --> 00:41:12,38 and he said he did he they were a generation of vipers OK And the reason he said that is because he said you know the 353 00:41:12,39 --> 00:41:22,67 law. You know the law. But you don't understand. The all that points to me. 354 00:41:24,99 --> 00:41:36,4 OK so you can be a legal listing and mathematics is very legalistic. Son bending it's on you. That's why. 355 00:41:37,46 --> 00:41:49,05 You you you you want to get. OK. But. That all of that perfection points to one man Jesus. 356 00:41:50,13 --> 00:41:58,04 Who is God Well the book that mathematics can be flexible right it's that it can be flexible and malleable 357 00:41:58,37 --> 00:41:59,98 but the I guess the attitude that I. 358 00:42:00,06 --> 00:42:08,56 Above of sort of an imperative all kind of spirituality where we're all working together to try to grow 359 00:42:08,57 --> 00:42:17,07 and understand and so forth. And and they pull out stones to kill him then he says why are you. 360 00:42:18,13 --> 00:42:25,18 Going to kill me and they say him because you being a mere man claim to be the Son of God and then Jesus says 361 00:42:25,81 --> 00:42:31,42 but haven't you read the Scriptures that say I have said all of you are gods 362 00:42:31,88 --> 00:42:35,32 and all of you are sons of the most high then Jesus goes on to say 363 00:42:35,67 --> 00:42:42,19 and if he says that there are gods to whom the word of God came and Jesus' prayer was 364 00:42:42,44 --> 00:42:43,73 and the Scripture cannot be broken. 365 00:42:44,83 --> 00:42:51,59 Then why are you trying to kill me just for claiming I'm the son of God so what Jesus is making very very clear there 366 00:42:52,09 --> 00:43:00,72 is that we're all gods. We're all sons of God but we're all gods and from that point of view we're all in a position. 367 00:43:02,25 --> 00:43:10,2 To discuss with each other and grow on an equal footing in other words so I'm 368 00:43:10,21 --> 00:43:12,43 but I'm suggesting that if you don't you take that one 369 00:43:12,44 --> 00:43:18,08 and take scriptures literally that Scripture is literally saying each one of us is God's 370 00:43:18,09 --> 00:43:21,75 and Jesus sort of emphasizes that point he says I have said you were God 371 00:43:21,79 --> 00:43:28,00 and the Scripture cannot be set set aside on this point he said Don't let the Scripture be set aside in this so we have 372 00:43:28,01 --> 00:43:30,23 to take that that point very very seriously 373 00:43:30,55 --> 00:43:37,54 and one place were were you going to take that very seriously as it says we're all of us done qualified as gods to 374 00:43:37,55 --> 00:43:43,89 explore what this whole thing is about and to go back and forth about it now in 375 00:43:44,65 --> 00:43:51,25 and saying that we're God's that's God with a little g. He's given us. 376 00:43:52,29 --> 00:43:59,98 Dominion over the earth not to have it he's given has to be you know these are OK That's why. 377 00:44:00,01 --> 00:44:03,85 He said in Genesis that's what he told Adam and Eve 378 00:44:03,89 --> 00:44:09,75 but that's Jesus argument right Jesus was saying to the pharmacy's I said that you were God I'm only claiming to be the 379 00:44:09,76 --> 00:44:14,26 Son of God so you shouldn't be killing me for being just a Son of God That's right they were claiming something bigger 380 00:44:14,41 --> 00:44:21,55 so Jesus point was not God with a little g I mean his whole argument was the opposite you guys are gods with a big G 381 00:44:21,59 --> 00:44:28,24 I'm just going to be the Son of God and so that was that was his argument to them when we're born again 382 00:44:28,49 --> 00:44:34,02 and were baptized in the Holy Spirit our spirit become one with the Holy Spirit. 383 00:44:35,43 --> 00:44:44,48 OK So from that perspective we are we've got everything that Jesus has. Our problem is. 384 00:44:45,24 --> 00:44:47,01 Most of us don't know what we hear. 385 00:44:48,17 --> 00:44:51,13 From Scripture we don't know the authority that we have 386 00:44:51,38 --> 00:45:03,46 and we don't know how to use it OK I gree with you that that there's a lot of growth at least take place in you know 387 00:45:03,52 --> 00:45:13,94 the majority of Christian all Christians gloating right all right. And scientists and anybody else Jesus. 388 00:45:15,12 --> 00:45:24,23 In terms of theology Jesus was perfect theology he's the model. OK. So. 389 00:45:25,27 --> 00:45:31,44 So where we were going to get our point of integration is around him personally. 390 00:45:32,96 --> 00:45:40,65 And if we in our church integrate ourselves psychologically around him and spiritually and physically around him. 391 00:45:41,67 --> 00:45:49,99 Then we're going to have as perfect. Operating life as we get to have OK and powerful. 392 00:45:55,98 --> 00:46:07,06 If you want to and I think this conversation no I'm happy. Listening OK. But we've had five yeah yeah. 393 00:46:08,08 --> 00:46:14,8 It's a good discussion. Now we've broken the ice on that while we can talk some more right. 394 00:46:16,44 --> 00:46:19,96 Now there are other issues that you guys think we might want to bring up 395 00:46:19,97 --> 00:46:24,66 or if you think as a scientist try to get more you know I'm happy to look at the modeling 396 00:46:24,7 --> 00:46:32,36 and get as much intuition just I can there might my feeling about this is that. If we take this more. 397 00:46:33,43 --> 00:46:39,27 Open attitude long dogmatic where we just it's a free for all everybody has the freedom to put their ideas out there 398 00:46:39,63 --> 00:46:47,57 for them that we could really push things forward very very quickly I deserve it I believe that what you've done in 399 00:46:47,58 --> 00:46:59,04 terms of giving he ontology the turned around bowing in the same direction as spirituality OK now you can now harmony 400 00:46:59,05 --> 00:47:05,92 can take place I think I think it really can the only thing is used I mean I greet the intelligence. 401 00:47:07,07 --> 00:47:12,05 Is remarkably amenable to most religious points you know it's remarkable that it comes out that way. 402 00:47:13,45 --> 00:47:18,45 And it's against physical so many of my scientific colleagues are are stunned but then they finally understand 403 00:47:18,46 --> 00:47:25,96 and they go yeah you got me that physicalism doesn't seem to be right so the next step is just letting go of dogmatism 404 00:47:25,97 --> 00:47:27,13 My feeling is that. 405 00:47:29,39 --> 00:47:38,52 Claims of infallibility have always gone bad in human history right it's it leads to wars between religions it leads to 406 00:47:38,76 --> 00:47:45,13 strife and so forth an attitude of humility that says you know what here's my current point of view 407 00:47:45,41 --> 00:47:49,56 but I could be wrong let's have a discussion and let's find out where a got things wrong and we're 408 00:47:49,57 --> 00:47:55,67 and we're having that kind of dialogue from one of humility that's where we can really make progress verb 409 00:47:55,68 --> 00:47:59,98 or it quickly and so when I put out about a mathematical model of brick. 410 00:48:00,17 --> 00:48:04,41 Careful when I do that in like a public setting to say I'm putting this out. 411 00:48:05,85 --> 00:48:10,12 To be precise so we can find out precisely why I'm wrong 412 00:48:10,81 --> 00:48:16,45 and that's the attitude I love to see happening in spirituality words instead of saying you know it's my way 413 00:48:16,46 --> 00:48:23,17 or the highway it's rather here here is I think a beautiful idea but let's explore and see where I might be wrong 414 00:48:23,42 --> 00:48:28,27 and with that out of to have it I think we have the best chance of really moving forward 415 00:48:28,54 --> 00:48:33,62 and having a spirit that doesn't lead to you know the fighting or you're you know if you 416 00:48:33,72 --> 00:48:40,68 and that's one of the reasons that I really enjoy Andrew Weil Mack and Bill Johnson 417 00:48:41,59 --> 00:48:43,56 and you will make them to Colorado 418 00:48:43,57 --> 00:48:51,69 and Bill Johnson up in Redding California because they have that kind of open spirit I think OK and. 419 00:48:53,28 --> 00:48:59,36 You know what I have or I've observed is that there are there that a Christian so. 420 00:49:01,01 --> 00:49:09,02 One of the conclusions of your father was that when you're looking for a model there is a model he's right right. 421 00:49:10,04 --> 00:49:16,64 Well and I think that I can look to Jesus' life for insight and guidance 422 00:49:16,65 --> 00:49:20,72 but as a scientist I'm a Benchley going to look at it with a critical eye 423 00:49:21,5 --> 00:49:27,28 and maybe there are parts of it that I don't think are good or a great model and to to pick 424 00:49:27,29 --> 00:49:36,19 and choose for myself what I think is is worth and it what's inspiring and what what is not. So so. 425 00:49:37,94 --> 00:49:44,8 Find my inspiration there and other places as well so our attitudes are a little bit different on that point. And. 426 00:49:46,54 --> 00:49:49,04 Everything you do you're going by God. 427 00:49:50,53 --> 00:49:55,9 To think about what he's saying there part of the problem is that I don't have my own mathematical understanding of 428 00:49:55,91 --> 00:49:59,98 what God might be if I can at all so for me as a scientist. 429 00:50:00,01 --> 00:50:07,59 Until I can unpack what in the three o'clock to say just what correspond to there it's hard for me to to grapple with 430 00:50:07,6 --> 00:50:16,16 the with with the problem I mean one thing that seems to come out of my theory is that no consciousness is omniscient. 431 00:50:17,54 --> 00:50:25,37 And that would seem to be against what most ideas about God say so if if that's the case 432 00:50:25,38 --> 00:50:28,77 and again not that that's just my current understanding of a model even there I could be wrong 433 00:50:28,96 --> 00:50:34,08 but right now my understanding my model is that that no conscious agent could be omniscient 434 00:50:34,13 --> 00:50:42,12 and even in the sense of completely self understanding so the idea that you are guided by God Well if I'm not I 435 00:50:42,13 --> 00:50:47,17 certainly would allow myself to try to unpack that statement in a rigorous mathematical way at some point 436 00:50:47,18 --> 00:50:51,76 and to unpack that. As well to write. 437 00:50:53,57 --> 00:50:57,79 Well that if he is right then I'll get some kind of mathematical understanding of what what. 438 00:50:59,1 --> 00:51:03,46 A rigorous understanding of God means and if that's possible 439 00:51:03,93 --> 00:51:10,39 and then an interpretation of what he's saying that would make sense to me what I don't want is a hand wave instead of 440 00:51:10,4 --> 00:51:17,34 understanding that's that's what I mean these can sometimes be statements that you just hear 441 00:51:17,35 --> 00:51:21,38 and repeat that have been heard and repeated for many many centuries 442 00:51:21,89 --> 00:51:26,35 and I would like to go beyond just repeating what people have said for thousands of years I would like to actually get 443 00:51:26,93 --> 00:51:31,38 testable hypotheses that make predictions that I that are surprising to me 444 00:51:32,05 --> 00:51:37,14 and to start to make progress because the the kind of thing where you say Jesus is the model is something you could 445 00:51:37,15 --> 00:51:43,97 have said you know eight hundred years ago in the same way I would like to start to say something new in a rigorously 446 00:51:43,98 --> 00:51:49,97 mathematical way so I mean ultimately who knows where it will lead me I don't know it maybe could lead to reject 447 00:51:49,98 --> 00:51:57,31 everything you say or maybe it will lead me to to say this you know I understand you in this particular fashion 448 00:51:57,71 --> 00:51:59,98 but that may be it not be the fashion in which you understood. 449 00:52:00,01 --> 00:52:04,01 So so we'll see where we're the mathematics leads it's an open enterprise. 450 00:52:05,26 --> 00:52:12,9 You happy yeah yeah I'm happy with a good look at the tenor of the conversation I was glad that that he was they were 451 00:52:12,91 --> 00:52:20,13 not. Defensive. I expected them to be more defensive about it specially when I was talking about. 452 00:52:21,41 --> 00:52:29,1 Not taking every word of the Bible as you know infallible word of God I mean for me that's absolutely essential to to 453 00:52:29,14 --> 00:52:35,65 secure that point because if you take it as the infallible word of God there's no chance for progress I mean if it's 454 00:52:35,66 --> 00:52:42,12 all set in stone how can we how can we grow up so I was delighted that they seem to let go of that point although I had 455 00:52:42,13 --> 00:52:51,18 to hit them with a pretty hard example to to make that happen. Looking at them. 456 00:52:55,95 --> 00:52:59,81 In the other question or no OK my question OK.