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So Jennifer thank you so much for giving us this opportunity to have a wide ranging conversation so just perhaps to

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begin with something very simple Where are we.

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We are in the Microsoft New England research

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and development center which is in Cambridge Massachusetts we're right next to MIT and down the road from Harvard

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and how did you end up here. I took a strange path here just how did you end up here. Well I took a very strange path here.

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I actually started out as an undergraduate in biology I wanted to be a doctor.

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And then I fell in love with physics I had to take some physics to become a biologist

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and a doctor to get into medical school and I fell in love with physics so then I did a physics major

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and then I decided that I really didn't want to be a doctor I wanted to be a physicist so I went to physics grad school

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and did mathematical physics and I was you know practicing mathematical physicists for I don't know fifteen years

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or so when at the Institute for Advanced Study Nathan Myhrvold who founded Microsoft Research and.

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Tried to convince me to go there and start a theory group there which would bring together math physics

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and theoretical computer science and I knew nothing about theoretical computer science

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but I went because there was an opportunity to start an interdisciplinary lab

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and that was irresistible to me so you know here I am twenty years later having opened this lab about ten years ago

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and that's that's how I got here and what was your experience kind of being on the other side. You have been in academia and now you're

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You're in industry.

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How does the world look like from that point of view well I it first of all we have a very academic industrial lab you

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know I've had probably one hundred fifty or two hundred post docs over the years

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and I would say that ninety to ninety five percent of them have landed up as professors so that tells you that we are

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we are an academic enterprise

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but one of the things that I find really exciting is that I hear about problems in a very early stage

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when you know it's even it's difficult to formulate them mathematically and I love translating

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and connecting the pieces so I will hear about a problem in the context of technology

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and I will see that there are some way to view it through the lens of mathematics or the lens of physics

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and then you know then bring in the academic community to start looking at the problem so for me this is very exciting

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so I must also be exciting to be kind of so close to.

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Kind of a force that shapes kind of technology

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and actually a world you know it's if you look at it from your own personal perspective you know that that's

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perhaps one of the big stories of our lives that we went through these enormous transition in technology particularly

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information technology how do you relate to that yourself well I love being so close to it

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and I think it's actually just begun I think that machine learning in artificial intelligence are going to transform

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our individual lives.

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Because we will start to interact right now we have our phones we have Siri and Cortana

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and the you know different personal assistants.

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But I think it's going to become so much deeper than that we will have beings that really understand us that relate

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to us

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and we will have companions for older people which is going to become a big problem in in the world we will have companions

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for our children and then machine learning will also transform health care it will transform.

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environmental science which is incredibly important

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and it will also I I believe transform the more basic sciences

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you know I believe that cosmology for example will get transformed by machine learning because of the data that

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we're bringing in

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and you know even how we collect this data radio astronomers work very hard to collect data far status so that they

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don't have to orientate transform it I was just sitting in a board meeting

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and I asked Well has anyone tried to use some of the new machine learning techniques so that we could actually measure

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and for you transform

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and see if we can get enough signal from that so I think you know in all aspects of this as we develop machine learning

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we're going to be able to.

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Really push ahead in the basic sciences the Applied Sciences

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and the way in which we interact with the world this is already impacting your life right now if you just look at your

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own personal life perhaps. Do you feel that you. technology is changing that Oh absolutely I mean technology is.

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You know we we all have our phones we get very attached to our phones in fact you see withdrawal

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if people My husband just lost his phone last week and he was that's what he was desperate he was desperate.

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You know your phone connects you in so many different ways it also connects me socially I am actually a user of

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Facebook

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and Twitter it took me a long time to adjust because I was not born into them like some younger people were for me it's

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not my native tongue it's an acquired language for the kids who are growing up today it's their native tongue

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but I have connected with so many people people from my past scientists so I hear about different kinds of science you

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know from scientists who are on Facebook and you know

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and talking about new discoveries so it's it's just it it connects us all in.

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In a really exciting way

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and for me especially because I love interdisciplinary work it allows me to tap into these different kinds of science

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to think about how they might be ripe for the kinds of approaches so so for me it's really I could not imagine living

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without information technology if you think about particularly  this kind of knowledge element you know the fact that you know knowledge is

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now so easy. You can easily connect to it. It's so easy to collaborate it's easy for knowledge to spread.

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You think that changes just the way. You know our research and perhaps even you know our collective kind of brain works.

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I personally do think it changes everything I mean I am someone who in my career I've you know started out in math

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and physics and I ventured into computer science.

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And then ventured into economics and some social sciences

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and ventured into computational biology there's no way that I could have done this without.

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You know the world of knowledge the universe of knowledge at my fingertips to learn about different things to connect

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with different people and also you know I sometimes get my best ideas when I.

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Am hearing about different disciplines

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and I get an intuition that I might be able to connect them to the lenses through through which I see the world you

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know through mathematics and physics and phase transitions in in particular

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and so for me this knowledge we are we're really accelerating with information technology.

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The building of this fabric of knowledge

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and we're breaking down the silos which existed. if you push that at little bit further there are clearly

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Silos within academia and research that are being broken but if you think a little bit broader in terms of the world so to which extent are we

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able to kind of reach everyone.

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And that connectivity is that something that's helping so to say also to spread knowledge truly across the globe Well I

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think one of the really exciting things is that.

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You know with online courses

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and with you know articles available on the archives and this kind of thing you know you can be a scientist anywhere.

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Even in the developing world where you don't have very much but you have enough connectivity for a cell phone

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and you.

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Can tap into this so I think it it has allowed us as scientists to help spur the scientific endeavor in the developing

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world you know I don't know how we would have done it otherwise you you can't build up libraries in subsaharan africa

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Now obviously if you're starving you're not going to be doing science

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but if you were not starving you might still have been isolated from this kind of worldwide scientific endeavor

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and now you're not. so it's just such a powerful force in there you're very close to the center these big drivers do you see

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it almost by definition as a force for good or are there also aspects that you worry about so. I.

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See a lot of wonderful aspects of it I see that.

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You know people are able to learn so much I see that you know we we also are able to spread technologies that help in

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really important ways in terms of clean water

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and things like that so as we train people in the various countries they they can do this but I also.

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Think especially recently you know we've seen this spread of fake news.

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And

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and so I think this was a great shock I think everyone expected the Internet or the World Wide Web to be the great equalizer

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and to spread information

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and we realize that of course it can also spread misinformation so one of the areas that's being developed now I have

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a group in one of my two labs that calls itself the fate group: fairness accountability transparency.

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And ethics and it brings together people from.

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Ethics philosophy law with machine learning

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and information retrieval to look at whether there are ways in which we can use these technologies to guard against you

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know the dark side of the Web

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but if you think about other technologies in fact industrial development by itself of course costs lots of issues that

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often then technology is again is basically our only resource to.

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Deal with these kind of adverse effects so you think for information technology it will be something similar in the end

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It's the next. Iteration of technology that will help to. I think that.

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A lot of people in machine learning and AI are now devoting efforts to trying to stop this spread of misinformation.

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And also of bias you know we have the the problem with machine learning is

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and artificial intelligence is that you have the algorithm but you also have the data Yes

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and the algorithm takes in the data and out put something and the data is created by human beings

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and so if the human beings have bias then the outcome has bias if you are looking for an engineer the Web is more

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likely to return a male name than a female name

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and this is because it has learned from all the interactions so I have some people in one of my labs who said how can

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we use technology to solve this problem to rebalance to rebalance so there are there's something

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called word vectors which are used to generalize and.

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broaden searches by all search engines

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and those word vectors have implicit biases in them they associate things in a gender biased way in a racially biased

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way in an economically biased way and so some of my researchers took this the gender bias and they de-biased

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the word vectors so that you could feed that into the search engine

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and get outputs which were not gender biased anymore you know

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and so this is using machine learning using algorithms using mathematics to.

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To deal with some of the problems that are caused by the technology. do you worry sometimes that that knowledge becomes

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kind of integrated in our lives that we aren't even aware of it's what is doing for us

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or not doing for instance you just said that young children they don't know the world without the internet.

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But I'm not worried about it I'm I believe that.

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They pick it up just like any other language it's almost as if

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when language didn't exist in that well language started to exist slowly

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but if you know if I have one set of children who are raised with one language

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and another set who were raised with three languages.

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In fact they might start talking a little later but they are going to see the world in in a deeper way

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and I believe that children and even we who learn this not as our native tongue.

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Use it to connect things

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and to do things that were not possible in the past I think it's actually part of our evolution that we now

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Are beginning to adjust to the ways in which.

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Technology can enhance our lives. So you talked about how knowledge and information spreads much more easily.

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On the other hand knowledge always was power

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and in some sense Microsoft you can say this is certainly one of the centers of power so can you say something about

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how how do we deal with this paradox that on the one hand information is spreading

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but on the other hand some of the most powerful companies.

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Use that kind of knowledge. so I think that this is a real problem that.

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That these networks

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and I think study networks I study them mathematically I study their applications in social networks and biology in.

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Economics. Networks actually centralize power.

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For the network providers networks are incredibly powerful people go on them and interact

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and the network providers have incredible power Jaron Lanier is a wonderful wonderful author and technologist

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and he wrote a book I believe it was. Who owns the future.

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And it was precisely this question these networks while generating so much value for the world then take that value

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and centralize it among a few individuals or a few companies and so he had a view that some would call a utopian view.

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Attempting to redistribute that value to the people who participated in the network and created the value

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and I'm not sure that he has come up with the right way to do that yet but I think it's something that society

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needs to consider social good has been created but then its value has been centralized

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and how do we bring it back what economic systems

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and social systems can we engineer to take some of the value back to those who helped create it by participating in the

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network. what I find fascinating though which of course you never really have an academic setting

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but if you talk to R&D being done at these large companies

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some of it is secret it's knowledge that is very held very closely.

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And you're also in competition with others so how does that feel well I think first of all How much is there that we don't know

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there is proprietary information kind of business information most of the people in my labs publish everything

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openly so

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and I think that's a requirement we have brought in a lot of people from academia who's for whom being able to share

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knowledge is incredibly important that's how science is is done now so there is some proprietary business information

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and that of course does feed this centralization of value there is also personally identifiable information. P.-I I.

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Which includes both things like your search history which can reveal so much about you it's unbelievable

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and also for example your health information there is nothing more personally identifiable than your genome you know

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and your clinical health records are incredibly personal So there's a big question about how do we extract value for

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individuals and for society from this data without compromising people's privacy.

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And people's integrity

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and I think this is one of the great challenges of the age of big data you know there are again some technological

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mathematical solutions there's homomorphic encryption which is.

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A mathematical construct which allows you to extract information from the data

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but return something which doesn't reveal that information however it slows the typical calculation down by about ten

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to the thirteenth OK That's not what you want to do. but.

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There are certain kinds of calculations which it only slows down by ten to the sixth which might still sound like a lot

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to you but what if I said oh you know you've done twenty three and Me

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or some other service which you know looks at parts of your genome

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and tells you your odds of developing diabetes or Alzheimers.

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You probably don't want that information to be public

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but you might want that information used in some ways if I slow down those calculations by tend to the sixth I can do ten

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thousand of them in one minute would you be willing to wait a minute to know this information about yourself in a

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completely private way

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and you probably would so that is a price you want to pay that's a price you want to pay so so the question is What are the

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what's the price we're willing to pay in time in calculation for privacy and I think that is something that

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and then there's other forms of this there's.

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Secure multiparty computation and other things so we're going to have to as a society or as.

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Different societies with different ethical norms

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and different social norms decide what are the tradeoffs we're willing to make we you know I don't think we can run

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away

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and say we don't want any of this technology because I think we're harming ourselves more than the technology should

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harm us or could harm us so you know how do different societies strike that balance

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and this is a conversation that I believe society should be having and then eventually.

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You know there are legislatures can legislate about it

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but we have to talk it out on a philosophical first on a technological level what is it possible to do

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and then on a philosophical and ethical level and the best thing would be to have the philosophical

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and ethical conversations combined with the scientific conversations about what's possible.

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You mentioned already few times.

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this kind of end of artificial intelligence machine learning machines getting smarter and smarter.

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Just take that thought and push it a little bit further so what are we how will our lives be impacted by that say first think about

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the next five years

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but then also take a longer view. so I I think there are certain you know certain things that are going to be really

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really improved by this technology I recall you know talking to my husband

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and saying oh I might want to you know get a house here or there

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and he says I Well we have to be careful because you know if you want to have this house for thirty years you know

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maybe you'll be too old to you know do you want to drive to the you know to the store to get your eggs to

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and I said Oh you don't have to worry about that we won't we won't be driving ourselves in ten years.

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None of us will drive ourselves our cars will drive us so we don't have to worry about that so there are you know

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things on a shorter time scale also just I really think a lot about elder care my parents are getting older.

212
00:24:17,81 --> 00:24:28,35
I think there will be robots that can actually help us help our parents which will impact me because I care deeply

213
00:24:28,36 --> 00:24:38,51
about them and I want them to have a life in which they're more independent which this technology will allow us to do.

214
00:24:38,51 --> 00:24:49,25
I think in the long run I the things that I get really excited about in you know out ten to twenty years is the effect

215
00:24:49,29 --> 00:24:58,16
on personalized medicine it's going to be unbelievable I mean we we have so many layers of information to bring

216
00:24:58,17 --> 00:25:04,25
together we have the genome but we also have.

217
00:25:04,25 --> 00:25:13,6
You know devices that sit on our wrists that very soon these devices will be good enough to measure your blood sugar

218
00:25:13,61 --> 00:25:20,35
just through your skin from whether you're you know hemoglobin is oxygenated or

219
00:25:20,39 --> 00:25:27,03
or not they'll be able to tell how much glucose you you have.

220
00:25:27,03 --> 00:25:28,88
You know they can tell your gait

221
00:25:28,89 --> 00:25:34,06
and whether as a person ages whether there's something wrong with the way in which they're walking

222
00:25:34,37 --> 00:25:43,17
and then you start to combine that with clinical information with diagnostic tests of various sorts you know each of us

223
00:25:43,18 --> 00:25:44,9
has.

224
00:25:44,9 --> 00:25:55,12
Thousands of codes of diagnostic codes associated with us over our lives if we could put that information together with

225
00:25:55,32 --> 00:26:00,77
continuously collected information and genomic information then.

226
00:26:01,48 --> 00:26:04,72
Information that a doctor records in his

227
00:26:04,73 --> 00:26:13,12
or her notes which will be able to access via natural language processing we will be able to increase the quality of

228
00:26:13,13 --> 00:26:16,27
life tremendously we will be able to prolong it

229
00:26:16,28 --> 00:26:25,19
but for me I think the most important thing is increasing the quality of life so that really excites me on an

230
00:26:25,27 --> 00:26:29,92
intermediate time scale. Are you worried that in the end the kind of decisions

231
00:26:29,93 --> 00:26:37,67
and sense of the place where all this information will come together will not be the human mind right it will be in 

232
00:26:37,68 --> 00:26:38,45
it might be in a machine

233
00:26:38,49 --> 00:26:47,83
or it might be some combination so I am not someone who is worried about the singularity which is who's worried

234
00:26:47,84 --> 00:26:56,46
about the machines taking over I know a lot of very good technologists are worried about this so it's not I mean it's

235
00:26:56,47 --> 00:26:58,13
not.

236
00:26:58,13 --> 00:27:03,37
Something that can just be dismissed but I but are you not worried about in the sense it's fine with you

237
00:27:03,41 --> 00:27:12,8
or are you not worried in the sense you don't see it happening I see that there will be.

238
00:27:12,8 --> 00:27:25,8
An integration of human knowledge in the human mind with these what I view is enhancements of the human mind I I am

239
00:27:25,81 --> 00:27:33,25
not particularly worried that these will turn on us and.

240
00:27:33,25 --> 00:27:34,83
And you know

241
00:27:34,84 --> 00:27:43,5
and take over because I think that they are really extensions of us you know you might have worried I don't know in the

242
00:27:43,78 --> 00:27:50,66
in the time of the first printing presses that if the masses get this knowledge from books well first it was just the

243
00:27:50,67 --> 00:27:58,04
wealthy people who got the knowledge and then over time the masses that there would be a restructuring of society

244
00:27:58,05 --> 00:28:00,74
and indeed there was a restructuring of society.

245
00:28:00,8 --> 00:28:11,01
but that was because there was so much more value that we could actually improve a lot of more of society

246
00:28:11,02 --> 00:28:16,49
and I my hope is that as we.

247
00:28:16,49 --> 00:28:20,71
Integrate humans with computers

248
00:28:20,72 --> 00:28:29,85
and with technology as enhancements of ourselves that again there will be a lot of value you know we still have half

249
00:28:29,86 --> 00:28:33,55
the population on this earth which.

250
00:28:33,55 --> 00:28:37,12
does not live as well as the developed world

251
00:28:37,54 --> 00:28:46,11
and so we could really use value creation in this world to improve the lot of those people if you take the long view

252
00:28:46,12 --> 00:28:52,1
and you think of the billions of years of evolution of life you know even the hundreds of thousands of years of human

253
00:28:52,16 --> 00:28:58,89
evolution and now we are in this phase where technology is some sense. Happening.

254
00:28:58,89 --> 00:29:02,37
You see this as some kind of a continuation of what nature's doing but then

255
00:29:02,38 --> 00:29:11,02
at a different level at a different speed I do see this as a continuation of what nature is is doing

256
00:29:11,03 --> 00:29:16,27
and in fact you know if you look at all of.

257
00:29:16,27 --> 00:29:21,1
All of human evolution so far you know we started out as hunters and gatherers

258
00:29:21,54 --> 00:29:29,55
and then we began to farm and what did we do well we harnessed other you know.

259
00:29:29,55 --> 00:29:32,65
Other organisms for our own good you know

260
00:29:32,66 --> 00:29:41,05
and we we interfered with their genomes not by going in there on a cellular level

261
00:29:41,06 --> 00:29:49,31
and interfering or on a molecular level but we bred certain plants for and animals and

262
00:29:50,29 --> 00:30:00,77
and so I see this as a natural evolution I see it as a way in which we are harnessing other kinds.

263
00:30:01,15 --> 00:30:01,71
Of power

264
00:30:01,72 --> 00:30:11,08
and I honestly expect that there are probably others in this universe who have already done this So you say we are kind of domesticating 

265
00:30:11,09 --> 00:30:17,28
technology we're domesticating technology we're domesticating technology it's our creation

266
00:30:17,45 --> 00:30:31,83
but it is also something that we domesticate you know we have we have created species honestly so and I think provided that.

267
00:30:31,83 --> 00:30:46,43
Science as it develops and technology as it develops is. Is done in concert with ethics.

268
00:30:46,43 --> 00:30:57,46
Then we will be fine OK So I think it's very very important that we have ethicists philosophers.

269
00:30:57,46 --> 00:31:07,22
Legal scholars sociologists anthropologists participating in the creation of this science

270
00:31:07,23 --> 00:31:13,69
and technology. is that a big if in the sense that you know we can kind of survive technology you know if you honestly

271
00:31:13,7 --> 00:31:22,29
look at previous episodes not that long ago like nuclear arms etc there were some close calls very close calls so it's not

272
00:31:22,3 --> 00:31:28,39
that it's not an obvious fact that humans are smart enough to control

273
00:31:28,4 --> 00:31:33,95
and deal in a responsible way with technology I think it's definitely not an obvious fact

274
00:31:34,39 --> 00:31:43,3
and I you know I don't know how much I would wager that we will be here ten thousand years from now we could destroy

275
00:31:43,31 --> 00:31:53,89
ourselves with nuclear weapons I think we are laying the foundation to destroy ourselves with climate change so I am

276
00:31:53,9 --> 00:32:05,66
hoping that we will wake up to some of this and we will be. Able to use technology to.

277
00:32:05,66 --> 00:32:09,86
Help correct some of the things that we have already done

278
00:32:10,32 --> 00:32:20,81
and help us to survive what we cannot correct. Jennifer we were talking about the kind of specific time in human evolution

279
00:32:20,82 --> 00:32:26,71
that we are right now where kind of restarting this kind of symbiotic relationship with technology

280
00:32:26,72 --> 00:32:34,66
and you're about to tell us this is something that reminds you of a phase transition What's a phase transition so a phase

281
00:32:34,67 --> 00:32:43,07
transition is something that everybody experiences when water freezes going from liquid to solid

282
00:32:43,08 --> 00:32:53,7
when water boils it's going from liquid to gas these are qualitative changes we have quantitative changes as you know

283
00:32:53,71 --> 00:33:02,6
water goes from ninety seven to ninety eight to ninety nine degrees it hits one hundred degrees Celsius

284
00:33:02,86 --> 00:33:05,92
and there's a qualitative change of state

285
00:33:06,62 --> 00:33:16,26
and so phase transitions are those qualitative changes that occur at specific values of a parameter

286
00:33:16,8 --> 00:33:20,94
and yet for me I mean I study phase transitions mathematically

287
00:33:21,2 --> 00:33:29,32
but they're also one of the lenses through which I view the world sometimes that can be sometimes you know these lenses

288
00:33:29,33 --> 00:33:36,96
can be made incredibly mathematically precise and other times they're only a metaphor and you know this case.

289
00:33:36,96 --> 00:33:50,29
I see points in human behavior in in human evolution as phase transition points I see the shift from you know from

290
00:33:50,3 --> 00:34:00,77
hunter gatherer to domestication as a qualitative shift in you know what homo sapiens.

291
00:34:00,88 --> 00:34:01,48
Could do

292
00:34:01,77 --> 00:34:14,59
and I do believe that we are very near another one of those cusps where we are going to be able to integrate the technology

293
00:34:15,04 --> 00:34:24,33
and the knowledge with our own minds and with our own bodies and we're going to be able to.

294
00:34:24,33 --> 00:34:27,44
Do things we were never able to do before

295
00:34:27,95 --> 00:34:33,67
or that we were never able to do for the vast majority of people before and

296
00:34:34,04 --> 00:34:39,56
and I think that you know if we're still around ten thousand years from now

297
00:34:39,77 --> 00:34:50,25
and somebody looks at the different ages you know where we domesticated animals or the industrial revolution.

298
00:34:50,25 --> 00:34:58,2
I think that this roughly around this time people will identify. Another.

299
00:34:58,2 --> 00:35:05,12
Change another phase transition in which we interact with the world

300
00:35:05,13 --> 00:35:12,41
and with each other in a different way. one of the pushing that metaphor a little bit one of the effects of phase transition

301
00:35:12,42 --> 00:35:18,34
that certainly you get kind of connections correlations over very different kind of skills

302
00:35:18,35 --> 00:35:24,97
and we were talking about this kind of connectivity is that would that be one of the kind of hallmarks of this kind of

303
00:35:24,98 --> 00:35:32,37
new phase of human kind where it's no longer us as individuals but it's us together

304
00:35:32,38 --> 00:35:36,44
and with machines do you see a role of that. I see.

305
00:35:36,44 --> 00:35:46,86
A definite role I'm one of the so what I love about phase transitions is that local interactions create a global effect

306
00:35:46,9 --> 00:35:55,08
yes local interactions between the water molecules lead to a change from liquid to gas as the water boils

307
00:35:56,03 --> 00:36:09,59
and so I believe that we are and typically you see. The the. The onset or the disappearance of long range order.

308
00:36:09,59 --> 00:36:14,74
You know when we learned to write things down.

309
00:36:14,74 --> 00:36:22,9
We could do much more than before we were able to write things down right we couldn't have we could pass information to

310
00:36:22,91 --> 00:36:31,74
other generations we could pass information to other generations we could have an economic system between us in which we didn't

311
00:36:31,75 --> 00:36:41,93
just barter but you know I gave you grain today and you gave me some animal tomorrow because we could write it down

312
00:36:42,42 --> 00:36:50,53
and our minds have the capacity to only deal with a certain number of people they say it's about one hundred fifty

313
00:36:50,54 --> 00:36:58,47
or so deal with a certain amount of information some of us can remember more than others but there's a limit

314
00:36:58,95 --> 00:37:11,03
and so writing things down qualitatively changed the size of the domains in which humans could interact

315
00:37:11,4 --> 00:37:21,71
and I believe that we're at another transition now where we're going really to a global scale of interaction

316
00:37:21,75 --> 00:37:25,82
and we've talked about global scales for years with planes

317
00:37:25,83 --> 00:37:31,85
and economy and you know the stock market of one country connected to that of another

318
00:37:32,1 --> 00:37:42,92
but I think this is the going to be the deep manifestation of it that our knowledge base is becoming universal is

319
00:37:42,93 --> 00:37:54,02
becoming long range so we're seeing the onset of long range order in our knowledge. if you think about this as a force

320
00:37:54,65 --> 00:38:03,63
is it kind of unstoppable is that somehow an autonomous development I think it is definitely unstoppable.

321
00:38:03,63 --> 00:38:09,46
Actually there there are. There are.

322
00:38:09,46 --> 00:38:18,39
Systems where there's kind of a driving force that then leads to a critical transition there's something in mathematics

323
00:38:18,4 --> 00:38:18,74
that I

324
00:38:18,78 --> 00:38:24,7
and physics that I worked on many years ago called self organized criticality So that was driving you towards a certain

325
00:38:24,71 --> 00:38:26,29
kind of phase transition

326
00:38:26,48 --> 00:38:36,79
but the driving force there was just you know the deposit of certain particles here there is a driving force I

327
00:38:36,8 --> 00:38:40,68
believe in human beings to connect with each other

328
00:38:41,11 --> 00:38:50,61
and that force is leading us towards this transition I don't think it's stoppable in any way.

329
00:38:50,61 --> 00:38:59,17
You know no one you you know this no one is going to stop you from trying to learn more about particle physics

330
00:38:59,18 --> 00:39:03,37
or for me trying to learn more and you know it just it's not going to happen

331
00:39:03,63 --> 00:39:15,00
and on so many different levels on emotional levels on intellectual levels on levels of survival we are driven to

332
00:39:15,01 --> 00:39:16,93
connect and I think

333
00:39:16,98 --> 00:39:24,38
but these are local interactions Yes And I think that what's happening is that technology has facilitated.

334
00:39:24,38 --> 00:39:33,09
The onset of long range order here so the title of the series is the mind of the universe.

335
00:39:33,09 --> 00:39:37,87
And the idea is really that in some sense this connectivity is creating a mind that's going to

336
00:39:38,22 --> 00:39:45,5
at least a global mind or something is I think you see that the kind of happening.

337
00:39:45,5 --> 00:39:53,53
Our individual being becomes much more part of a global ensemble. I very much believe this is happening

338
00:39:53,54 --> 00:40:00,74
and I find it so exciting Yes I believe that we are part of this global ensemble I see.

339
00:40:00,8 --> 00:40:06,88
You know I start to work I come up with a you know theory of phase transitions for deep learning

340
00:40:06,89 --> 00:40:14,95
and before I know it there are people in other parts of the world that I thought were disconnected I thought the their

341
00:40:14,96 --> 00:40:22,8
research was on something different and they find they find the paper on the archives and they or they hear a talk

342
00:40:23,08 --> 00:40:26,09
and all of a sudden we're connected we're connected we're connected

343
00:40:26,38 --> 00:40:36,46
and it happens so much more rapidly over obviously you know world scale geographical distances

344
00:40:36,59 --> 00:40:46,18
but also intellectual distances are shrinking you know we are we are able to connect across what previously were

345
00:40:46,19 --> 00:40:54,23
intellectual divides so it's a world scale but also it's. Our.

346
00:40:54,23 --> 00:41:02,51
Our knowledge is is becoming integrated at an incredible rate. Can you speak also I mean there's knowledge in terms of different

347
00:41:02,52 --> 00:41:04,35
fields or subjects

348
00:41:04,76 --> 00:41:10,1
but I guess there's also something like the culture from which you approach this cultures has been developed in various

349
00:41:10,11 --> 00:41:17,5
countries now it could be gender based or various ways to look at the World.

350
00:41:17,5 --> 00:41:24,51
Talk about what this kind of diversity means once we start connecting these various points of view because not

351
00:41:24,52 --> 00:41:27,74
everybody has the same point of view.

352
00:41:27,74 --> 00:41:37,3
I actually love the fact that not everybody has the same point of view in you know my career what I've done is I have

353
00:41:37,8 --> 00:41:46,98
brought together different disciplines because I believe that the most exciting things happen at the boundaries of

354
00:41:46,99 --> 00:41:50,87
disciplines you know you bring the insights and the lens

355
00:41:50,88 --> 00:41:59,55
and the specific techniques of one discipline to bear on another and it it just.

356
00:42:01,36 --> 00:42:11,3
It's accellerates the the understanding of of a different subject so so much I believe also we should have different

357
00:42:12,01 --> 00:42:13,85
cultural backgrounds.

358
00:42:13,85 --> 00:42:19,49
Now in fact in the different fields we really do have different cultural backgrounds a physicist views the

359
00:42:19,5 --> 00:42:22,79
world very differently from an anthropologist

360
00:42:22,8 --> 00:42:28,39
and I I see these these different views coming together over time

361
00:42:28,73 --> 00:42:39,3
but you know I also have people from many different countries in my lab they have different social norms.

362
00:42:39,3 --> 00:42:49,02
I love this because then we step back and we consider the differences in social norms in information technology.

363
00:42:49,02 --> 00:42:55,14
There are so many questions around privacy the social norms in Germany

364
00:42:55,15 --> 00:43:00,8
and the Netherlands are so different than in the U.S. You know we always in the U.S.

365
00:43:00,95 --> 00:43:06,41
Err on the side of free speech and I hope we continue to do so.

366
00:43:06,41 --> 00:43:14,78
And you know and in Germany they err on the side of privacy and so when we bring Germans

367
00:43:14,79 --> 00:43:20,87
and Americans together we have to deal with these differences and we have to stand back

368
00:43:20,91 --> 00:43:29,18
and try to understand how those norms formed why they formed and what are the benefits of each

369
00:43:29,19 --> 00:43:37,01
and under what circumstances we retain which norms which is you know almost a kind of international law.

370
00:43:37,01 --> 00:43:44,72
And then finally you know I I think gender balance is incredibly important.

371
00:43:44,72 --> 00:43:52,5
In my labs we happen to have a lot of women some people say to me how do you get so many women

372
00:43:52,95 --> 00:43:56,55
and I said well I guess we just scare the men away.

373
00:43:56,55 --> 00:44:05,08
Or certain men we scare the ones who are uncomfortable with gender. You know with gender diversity away.

374
00:44:05,08 --> 00:44:13,68
You know and I I think also women when they see a woman leader they say OK there's a there's a place for me here.

375
00:44:13,68 --> 00:44:21,47
But I think that. These are sweeping generalizations but I think that women.

376
00:44:21,47 --> 00:44:29,88
Sometimes tend to be more into collaboration sometimes tend to be more into taking their mathematics for example

377
00:44:29,89 --> 00:44:34,63
or their computer science and applying it to the real world and veer

378
00:44:34,64 --> 00:44:40,59
and as I say it's sweeping generalisations because there are many men who really care about the social implications of

379
00:44:40,6 --> 00:44:49,18
their work but I think it just it just as you want to bring different cultures from different countries

380
00:44:49,19 --> 00:44:56,65
and from different disciplines together I think you want to bring different genders together and different racial

381
00:44:56,66 --> 00:45:02,54
and religious backgrounds together because it just causes you to step back

382
00:45:03,07 --> 00:45:12,14
and see the world more broadly which is I think the way to really push science forward so you would argue this 

383
00:45:12,15 --> 00:45:14,55
really just benefits research

384
00:45:14,56 --> 00:45:21,95
and development by itself to have this greater diversity absolutely I feel that way I think that.

385
00:45:21,95 --> 00:45:29,71
Just you know if you're always with the people who come from the same background.

386
00:45:29,71 --> 00:45:37,3
You know if you just have this is they ask the kinds of questions that physicists ask which are wonderful I mean I was

387
00:45:37,63 --> 00:45:46,55
you know raised a physicist but I love the fact that I talk to a biologist and I and I begin it

388
00:45:46,56 --> 00:45:54,22
and it takes years actually to appreciate people think you have to learn the techniques of a different field

389
00:45:54,47 --> 00:46:00,77
but I think you really have to learn the values of the different field and what are the kinds of questions they.

390
00:46:00,8 --> 00:46:07,35
Ask what are the things they care about in a different field before you can have a deep

391
00:46:07,56 --> 00:46:11,15
and incredibly impactful collaborations 

392
00:46:11,5 --> 00:46:21,77
and in the same way having gender balance having you know nationally cultural balance allows you to broaden your view

393
00:46:22,19 --> 00:46:29,75
and which ultimately allows you to go into something more deeply. if you just look at your own personal life story

394
00:46:29,79 --> 00:46:37,18
and you know your professional development you seem to be very adventurous you know going into new cultures

395
00:46:37,19 --> 00:46:42,81
or something you know how did that feel was it something you had from the very beginning.

396
00:46:42,81 --> 00:46:51,55
You know it's it's really funny because I. How were you as a child. I thought I would be scared of things.

397
00:46:51,55 --> 00:47:00,08
I actually am scared of things sometimes but there is this other I Somebody once told me I was counter phobic.

398
00:47:00,08 --> 00:47:07,23
Anything that scares me I rushed towards so sometimes my initial reaction is a little bit of fear I don't understand

399
00:47:07,24 --> 00:47:16,33
that at all you know and I think but then if I don't understand it it has power over me so I'm just going to rush in

400
00:47:16,34 --> 00:47:19,29
and I'm going to try to understand it

401
00:47:19,3 --> 00:47:28,79
and try to absorb it because then I can absorb that power that way of looking at the world so I land up

402
00:47:29,15 --> 00:47:35,22
and I just got excited about it. why are you so attracted to things you don't know what's.

403
00:47:35,22 --> 00:47:46,00
I think you see each time I also as I get older come with things that I do know now so.

404
00:47:46,00 --> 00:47:52,73
Now when you're when you're first a graduate student you actually come with very little you know

405
00:47:52,9 --> 00:48:00,2
and so it's really hard because you're coming to these very difficult questions and you have very few bows

406
00:48:01,21 --> 00:48:08,32
You know you have very few ways I mean I've you you have your own mind and your own creativity and that's wonderful

407
00:48:08,88 --> 00:48:16,47
but you have very little perspective and now as I move into different fields there's the initial fear

408
00:48:16,8 --> 00:48:23,12
and there's the activation barrier of having to learn not only the techniques but also the values

409
00:48:23,13 --> 00:48:32,33
and the questions of that field but then I bring my probability theory distribution perspective to it

410
00:48:32,38 --> 00:48:37,76
or I bring my phase transition perspective so I bring all these different perspectives you have all these different arrows now

411
00:48:37,77 --> 00:48:40,05
and I have all these different arrows

412
00:48:40,35 --> 00:48:47,31
and all of a sudden I'm so much of a better graduate student than I was the first time around you know.

413
00:48:47,31 --> 00:48:47,59
You know

414
00:48:47,6 --> 00:48:55,42
and hopefully I still retain some of my creativity I think it also really allows me to retain creativity because I

415
00:48:55,43 --> 00:48:59,72
think when you enter a new field.

416
00:48:59,72 --> 00:49:05,09
You have to create something yourself to understand that field and

417
00:49:05,78 --> 00:49:14,67
when you stay in a field sometimes you just hone the details of what you know which can lead to remarkable

418
00:49:14,68 --> 00:49:15,44
breakthroughs

419
00:49:15,68 --> 00:49:24,54
but this excitement of Oh now I understand something I didn't understand before this rush you get mixed with the fear

420
00:49:24,55 --> 00:49:28,27
that you get as a graduate student.

421
00:49:28,27 --> 00:49:31,69
I guess must be addictive to me because I keep doing it again

422
00:49:31,7 --> 00:49:38,73
and again. do you kind of imagine the future do you imagine somehow what's out there in the areas that you don't

423
00:49:38,74 --> 00:49:46,41
know. Do I imagine the future Well you know my one great sadness is that I won't be able to you know I won't be

424
00:49:46,42 --> 00:49:51,02
here to see all of this unless I'm wrong in my religious views

425
00:49:51,03 --> 00:49:57,28
where you solved these pesky problems in biology. Although God forbid then for

426
00:49:57,29 --> 00:50:00,77
all the people who are on the earth. But I.

427
00:50:00,8 --> 00:50:13,46
I do I magine the barriers in science in the different sciences being broken down much as the you know we've seen it in

428
00:50:13,5 --> 00:50:19,29
economics we have one economic system throughout much of the world

429
00:50:19,69 --> 00:50:25,63
and I I believe that we are going to move towards a time

430
00:50:25,64 --> 00:50:34,03
when science is more unified So for me this is really really exciting that we can kind of re-enter a renaissance you

431
00:50:34,04 --> 00:50:39,76
know the Renaissance had all the sciences together and then we specialized and we went apart

432
00:50:40,12 --> 00:50:46,58
and now I believe this new knowledge base which we all share

433
00:50:47,00 --> 00:50:56,28
and this new ability to communicate will bring us back you know to a post modern Renaissance where the sciences are

434
00:50:56,29 --> 00:51:02,07
more united. How will life be in this

435
00:51:02,07 --> 00:51:10,9
New Renaissance era? well I'm not sure how I mean I I hope that some of the inconveniences of life will be removed

436
00:51:10,91 --> 00:51:15,12
you know having to drive myself somewhere when I'm tired

437
00:51:15,13 --> 00:51:22,32
or having you know We're now stuck in between epochs where we have to sit on the phone

438
00:51:22,33 --> 00:51:29,42
and press buttons press one press two you know hopefully that will be removed to all these pesky little things that

439
00:51:29,61 --> 00:51:38,24
interfere on the other hand I hope that. You know we will not remove our ability to.

440
00:51:38,24 --> 00:51:44,98
Walk by the Charles River and you know and see the boats and see the birds and

441
00:51:45,44 --> 00:51:54,21
and feel connected to the universe in other ways I hope that we can retain the physicality which brings us great joy and

442
00:51:54,22 --> 00:52:04,46
peace and which I think is necessary for creativity of all kinds and yet. We can remove some of the.

443
00:52:04,46 --> 00:52:16,64
Less enjoyable aspects of physicality. What about. You said there's this incredible force that drives technology and.

444
00:52:16,64 --> 00:52:25,3
Another element in that is just the joy of finding things out, there's this playfulness to it. yes

445
00:52:25,77 --> 00:52:29,11
technology and science and research are serious business

446
00:52:29,12 --> 00:52:38,18
but do you consider yourself a serious person? I always play with science I always play.

447
00:52:38,18 --> 00:52:45,01
You know it's interesting when I was a member at the I.A.S. for the first time.

448
00:52:45,01 --> 00:52:50,05
Enrico Bombieri asked me how it was going and I'd been there for about a month

449
00:52:50,06 --> 00:52:53,55
and I said well I'm not having ideas

450
00:52:53,56 --> 00:53:00,17
and he said Are you worried that your ideas aren't great enough because this happens to people

451
00:53:00,18 --> 00:53:03,39
when they spend a year at the Institute for the first time

452
00:53:03,94 --> 00:53:12,42
and I said Yeah maybe I am. Maybe I should just go back to playing with mathematics to just you know I don't know

453
00:53:12,43 --> 00:53:17,41
where I'm going I'm just wondering around and I just started doing that again

454
00:53:17,42 --> 00:53:24,23
I started playing I started saying it doesn't matter I don't have to have a great idea today you know I'm just

455
00:53:24,24 --> 00:53:34,68
playing and it was actually during that year that I made the connection between statistical physics

456
00:53:34,92 --> 00:53:43,26
and theoretical computer science I played I talked to people I found all these connections so I think wandering

457
00:53:43,66 --> 00:53:46,06
and playing.

458
00:53:46,06 --> 00:53:55,11
Are really necessary for scientists. They're serious business. they are serious business. Is that something you encourage in others

459
00:53:55,61 --> 00:54:00,77
I very much encourage wandering in others.

460
00:54:00,8 --> 00:54:05,53
I have many postdocs in my labs at a given time ten or fifteen of them

461
00:54:06,03 --> 00:54:21,25
and I very much encourage them to talk across disciplines to step back that you know to play because that forms their

462
00:54:21,56 --> 00:54:24,04
worldviews for later you know

463
00:54:24,05 --> 00:54:34,79
and the more they play the broader their worldview so I very very much encourage this I sometimes tell people you're

464
00:54:34,84 --> 00:54:44,1
writing too many papers you know you're not you you should relax this is a time to really figure out what kind of a

465
00:54:44,11 --> 00:54:47,62
scientist you're going to be.

466
00:54:47,62 --> 00:54:56,47
If you think back. we started our conversation with you as a young girl you know having certain dreams.

467
00:54:56,47 --> 00:55:04,17
Looking back. Everything you have experienced, that you have seen happening in your own life and in society.

468
00:55:04,17 --> 00:55:11,45
Are you surprised by that? I'm completely surprised you know I'm I'm very driven in a way I'm playful and driven

469
00:55:11,79 --> 00:55:18,68
and so I'm always driven toward something I always have some I mean right now I really want to understand cancer

470
00:55:18,69 --> 00:55:23,79
immunotherapy because I'm starting a project with Arnie Levine at the I.A.S.

471
00:55:23,8 --> 00:55:32,38
I'm always driven and so I am rushing towards some goal but then I take a turn.

472
00:55:32,38 --> 00:55:35,4
And I start going towards another goal you know

473
00:55:35,41 --> 00:55:42,92
and so all these turns have you know have taken me on a path I never would have imagined

474
00:55:43,04 --> 00:55:47,62
and I also try to encourage the young scientists I mentor

475
00:55:47,63 --> 00:55:55,84
and I work with to just not to to always have great goals because I think it's important.

476
00:55:55,84 --> 00:56:00,77
But to always be open to the opportunities you know to to.

477
00:56:01,19 --> 00:56:10,54
Grab that brass ring that you know that might just appear because you never know where that is going to take you

478
00:56:10,8 --> 00:56:17,69
and it's not as if you're not bringing all of it along with you you know you're bringing all that you've

479
00:56:17,7 --> 00:56:22,38
done. Are you feeling a part of something which is much bigger than yourself in that.

480
00:56:22,58 --> 00:56:32,6
Absolutely I'm very much feeling a part of this as I said to you earlier I believe that the world that barriers are

481
00:56:32,61 --> 00:56:41,08
being broken down in science and I'd like it to extend even further I'd like it to extend to ethics

482
00:56:41,09 --> 00:56:48,07
and you know law and these other areas and that's why I get very excited every day

483
00:56:48,08 --> 00:56:55,18
when I see some other little barrier falling you know.

484
00:56:55,18 --> 00:57:01,85
Robert Frost said you know something there is that doesn't love a wall and I do not like walls

485
00:57:01,89 --> 00:57:07,11
I do not like walls and so I see them break down on small scales

486
00:57:07,12 --> 00:57:12,37
and then all of a sudden there's a phase transition because there is not a wall

487
00:57:12,65 --> 00:57:20,01
and so then a lot of people are passing between two disciplines at first only the ones who are willing to climb over

488
00:57:20,23 --> 00:57:23,97
the part of the wall that remains do that 

489
00:57:24,01 --> 00:57:31,13
but then it gets it gets broken down enough that you see unifications of different parts of science

490
00:57:31,35 --> 00:57:38,79
I know it's difficult on a day to day basis but are you an optimist? Oh I'm very much an optimist I mean yes on day to day

491
00:57:38,8 --> 00:57:45,52
you know oh my God I'll never be able to prove this or. But.

492
00:57:45,52 --> 00:57:45,86
You know

493
00:57:45,87 --> 00:57:56,02
on medium to long range scales I'm very much an optimist which is also why I love mentoring young people because I'm

494
00:57:56,06 --> 00:58:02,53
optimistic about their futures as well and I feel that's a way in which. You know.

495
00:58:02,53 --> 00:58:07,71
I can have a piece of this science that goes on. Because if you think about it

496
00:58:07,72 --> 00:58:09,62
one of the great things is you said

497
00:58:09,63 --> 00:58:15,78
when people start writing things down they were passing things to the next generation and then you know the knowledge that we

498
00:58:16,35 --> 00:58:19,55
are enjoying right now is from many many generations before us

499
00:58:19,56 --> 00:58:27,32
and do you feel you are also passing this along to the future? I feel I'm very much passing it along I mean my the grad

500
00:58:27,33 --> 00:58:28,43
students with whom I work

501
00:58:28,44 --> 00:58:36,91
and the post-docs are you know perhaps what I am proudest of I mean I'm proud of particular pieces of my own work but.

502
00:58:36,91 --> 00:58:44,88
You know I probably have over a hundred well over a hundred of my ex students

503
00:58:44,89 --> 00:58:50,5
and postdocs sitting at top universities around the world and

504
00:58:51,46 --> 00:59:00,07
and I see an element of what they do they're approaching things in a slightly different way because of the

505
00:59:00,08 --> 00:59:02,85
environment I helped to create for them

506
00:59:03,06 --> 00:59:09,91
and the world view I helped to give them a little piece of so I mean that's you know.

507
00:59:09,91 --> 00:59:16,25
That's definitely my greatest legacy. You talked about how we're forming this kind of great network.

508
00:59:16,25 --> 00:59:19,46
This kind of global intelligence.

509
00:59:19,46 --> 00:59:26,47
That's in space but do you also see this kind of extending in time? absolutely extending in time

510
00:59:26,48 --> 00:59:33,4
and you know I won't be you know leading labs a hundred years from now certainly.

511
00:59:33,4 --> 00:59:38,75
But they and their disciples will you know they are just

512
00:59:39,14 --> 00:59:45,78
and they are going to do things that I cannot imagine which is very exciting to me

513
00:59:46,68 --> 00:59:55,68
Undoubtly you tried so. OK Jennifer I want to go into some of the more specific technologies that are driving these

514
00:59:55,76 --> 01:00:02,53
tremendous changes. The first thing I want to talk about is virtual reality.

515
01:00:02,53 --> 01:00:07,42
You told us about how we're going to live in this kind of new world.

516
01:00:07,42 --> 01:00:13,33
Probably a lot of what we will experience in that new world will not be direct experiences as we do right now

517
01:00:13,37 --> 01:00:20,61
but probably in a virtual form so what do you see happening there. So I think that virtual reality

518
01:00:20,62 --> 01:00:33,71
and actually augmented reality which is the projection of some virtual elements into your physical space.

519
01:00:33,71 --> 01:00:43,08
Are just going to be wonderful I mean I think it you know it will have all kinds of applications from obviously

520
01:00:43,12 --> 01:00:50,93
games and amusement to many people being able to travel to other countries to which they haven't been able to travel 

521
01:00:50,94 --> 01:01:00,72
while sitting in their chairs you know to travel in the universe you know fly through the universe

522
01:01:00,73 --> 01:01:07,59
and see various stars to very concrete things like.

523
01:01:07,59 --> 01:01:20,23
A doctor in the United States being able to guide operations in the developing world so it you know it it will have very

524
01:01:20,32 --> 01:01:28,59
practical applications and it will also be magical in so many ways

525
01:01:28,6 --> 01:01:33,46
and I feel like I I get to travel all the time for my work.

526
01:01:33,46 --> 01:01:41,38
But I feel bad for people who can't travel so many of them will have a lot of these experiences

527
01:01:41,71 --> 01:01:48,93
and in augmented reality and virtual reality these are essentially visceral experiences.

528
01:01:48,93 --> 01:01:51,22
Perhaps in some sense our reality is already

529
01:01:51,23 --> 01:01:58,76
augmented right because you know our brain is processing what we see, is adding stuff to it. Absolutely I definitely

530
01:01:58,77 --> 01:02:00,77
think that my reality is.

531
01:02:00,96 --> 01:02:04,34
Augmented because I project. What you know

532
01:02:04,35 --> 01:02:14,25
I project what I know I project my views I you know I see networks I see phase transitions.

533
01:02:14,25 --> 01:02:14,55
You know

534
01:02:14,56 --> 01:02:23,54
and so I have kind of these parallel views going on. Is there a risk that we will kind of detach from the world

535
01:02:23,55 --> 01:02:33,17
and detach from each other. I don't think we will detach from each other I think there is.

536
01:02:33,17 --> 01:02:39,79
That it is really inbred in us to want to connect with each other.

537
01:02:39,79 --> 01:02:51,06
The World Wide Web started at first there was just information on the World Wide Web. What became the most popular

538
01:02:51,07 --> 01:02:57,8
things on the World Wide Web It was social media it was connecting it was Facebook

539
01:02:57,81 --> 01:03:06,98
and Twitter and Instagram it was not just passively interacting with some knowledge

540
01:03:06,99 --> 01:03:16,93
or some entertainment it was interaction so I believe that we will always want to interact. We are just kind of a social animal

541
01:03:17,06 --> 01:03:20,3
and this will be just enhancing that. yes

542
01:03:20,34 --> 01:03:29,61
and it would take many many many millions of years for us to evolve into something other than a social

543
01:03:29,65 --> 01:03:37,06
animal. So I believe that we will continue to remain fundamentally social.

544
01:03:38,04 --> 01:03:43,68
One of the things that is driving all of this. We also talked about artificial intelligence and machine learning

545
01:03:43,69 --> 01:03:51,11
and virtual reality is the sheer computing power that is.

546
01:03:51,11 --> 01:03:52,36
Now available

547
01:03:53,11 --> 01:04:00,00
and often this is kind of a semi secret how incredibly strong these resources are particularly in the private

548
01:04:00,01 --> 01:04:00,57
industry.

549
01:04:01,77 --> 01:04:08,74
But what do you see happening in computing in particular we are now in the phase where quantum computing

550
01:04:08,75 --> 01:04:09,63
is getting closer

551
01:04:09,64 --> 01:04:18,93
and I know Microsoft is heavily betting on that. So what will that do to us. Well you know for many years now people have

552
01:04:18,94 --> 01:04:24,2
been worried about the end of Moore's Law You know the doubling every year and a half

553
01:04:24,54 --> 01:04:33,74
and so we are going to need new computing paradigms I think quantum computing will be one there are different kinds of

554
01:04:33,88 --> 01:04:44,59
quantum computers. Mike Freedman at Microsoft he's a wonderful topologist is you know looking at topological quantum

555
01:04:44,6 --> 01:04:53,42
computing there are other kinds of chronic computing one could consider Adiabatic quantum computing which would

556
01:04:53,43 --> 01:04:57,2
have different realizations.

557
01:04:57,2 --> 01:05:00,84
I'm just starting to work with some people in Holland on this actually

558
01:05:00,85 --> 01:05:10,95
on adiabatic quantum computing possibly to create hardware that learns So you know there are we need people

559
01:05:10,96 --> 01:05:14,77
thinking about what are the next generations.

560
01:05:14,81 --> 01:05:21,72
But try to kind of get us a feeling of the magnitude of these changes you know what will be possible what's not possible

561
01:05:21,73 --> 01:05:29,34
right now just in terms of sheer power computational power. Well you know I think that.

562
01:05:29,34 --> 01:05:36,33
We are going to be able to conjure up. One of the things that is really.

563
01:05:36,33 --> 01:05:39,89
Computation intensive is image

564
01:05:39,9 --> 01:05:50,79
and graphics OK And we spoke about virtual reality well virtual reality will not be possible without a great deal more

565
01:05:51,27 --> 01:06:00,77
computing power so we really need many generations more of computing power for you to be.

566
01:06:00,97 --> 01:06:03,22
Able to be in this room

567
01:06:03,23 --> 01:06:11,88
and yet walk among the pyramids you know to interact with each other there will be things that you know where a 

568
01:06:11,89 --> 01:06:18,73
hologram of someone else is in the room with you a little bit like Star Trek.

569
01:06:18,73 --> 01:06:27,73
I very much hope I think everybody who travels very much hopes that virtual meetings will get much much better so that

570
01:06:27,74 --> 01:06:32,71
we don't have to keep hopping on planes and wasting our time

571
01:06:32,72 --> 01:06:38,39
and destroying the environment so all of these things are going to be facilitated

572
01:06:38,4 --> 01:06:45,28
and then also you know precision medicine we want to integrate so much.

573
01:06:45,28 --> 01:06:52,6
Your genome right now we're only looking at certain parts of the genome we're going to be able to look at so much more

574
01:06:52,61 --> 01:06:59,68
and we're going to be able to take in the genomes of so many more individuals right now

575
01:06:59,69 --> 01:07:08,38
in many diseases we don't yet have enough signal to be able to say anything. So you say we just kind of miss the 

576
01:07:08,39 --> 01:07:17,42
computational power. We miss the computational power. To attack these kinds of issues right on. Absolutely there are so many

577
01:07:17,43 --> 01:07:20,11
diseases where.

578
01:07:20,11 --> 01:07:27,69
We don't have enough samples we don't have enough computational power on those samples to be able to get a good signal

579
01:07:28,02 --> 01:07:34,79
and as we do that we are going to be able to .

580
01:07:34,79 --> 01:07:44,31
To really allow people to live very productive lives with mental illness with many other conditions which we really

581
01:07:44,32 --> 01:07:52,55
can't touch now. We are in a very primitive place our treatment of cancer is incredibly primitive we you know

582
01:07:52,56 --> 01:08:00,77
poison the whole body most of the time in order to try to cure someone of cancer so really we're in the dark ages.

583
01:08:00,8 --> 01:08:10,17
medically and in order to realize the promise we're going to need many more generations of computing power

584
01:08:10,33 --> 01:08:16,44
Let's go back also to the theme of technological progress and inequality

585
01:08:16,45 --> 01:08:22,73
or equality. So clearly in the beginning phase this is benefiting a small group

586
01:08:22,8 --> 01:08:28,53
but you're indicating in the end you see this as kind of spreading So what will these kind of technological revolutions

587
01:08:28,54 --> 01:08:37,46
do to the poor half of the world and also perhaps. In many countries there are.

588
01:08:37,46 --> 01:08:44,59
Places that are so to say very close by but they're very far away in terms of the spreading of ideas

589
01:08:44,65 --> 01:08:54,53
and technology so what what do you see changing there. so I think there are very many people in technology both you

590
01:08:54,54 --> 01:08:58,07
know people who have made their fortunes in technology

591
01:08:58,46 --> 01:09:08,75
and people who are currently doing technology creating technology who care deeply about inequality. I think we need to

592
01:09:08,76 --> 01:09:18,88
get connectivity to all parts of the world and we need to get inexpensive devices to all parts of the world I think.

593
01:09:18,88 --> 01:09:28,98
We need energy sources that will enable us to power those devices without destroying our climate so we need

594
01:09:29,57 --> 01:09:39,63
renewable energy sources and we need nanotechnology in other areas that will really allow us to to do that.

595
01:09:39,63 --> 01:09:45,37
We'll be able we will be able to.

596
01:09:45,37 --> 01:09:54,8
Transmit knowledge so that to help people you know create clean sources of water to help in agriculture

597
01:09:54,81 --> 01:10:00,72
and we can be applying machine learning to agricultural data.

598
01:10:01,14 --> 01:10:08,46
And really improving the food sources for a lot of people in the developing world.

599
01:10:08,46 --> 01:10:15,85
We can ultimately once we have gotten the medical and nutritional.

600
01:10:15,85 --> 01:10:24,18
Requirements dealt with we can start to teach people in other parts of the world and hopefully.

601
01:10:24,18 --> 01:10:31,63
Virtual meetings will be much better right now we do have online classes but I hope there will be a time

602
01:10:31,64 --> 01:10:36,37
when you know someone from subsaharan Africa can really you know his

603
01:10:36,38 --> 01:10:45,19
or her hologram can be in the classroom with someone at Cambridge University or Princeton University.

604
01:10:45,19 --> 01:10:52,48
You know and we can really begin to deal with the fact that.

605
01:10:52,48 --> 01:11:00,69
If people are not together it's hard to give them equal access. Do you feel we have the right incentives both in the

606
01:11:00,7 --> 01:11:08,57
academic world, in government but also in the private industry to do these kinds of.

607
01:11:08,57 --> 01:11:17,7
Right things for human development. So honestly I feel that some of the incentives are wrong OK.

608
01:11:17,7 --> 01:11:24,61
And I think that's one of the big questions in society is you know.

609
01:11:24,61 --> 01:11:33,91
How do we create incentives for social good or for what a game theorist would call social welfare.

610
01:11:33,91 --> 01:11:43,8
And I think right now we have swung a little too far in the United States this is my own private view towards

611
01:11:44,68 --> 01:11:52,58
centralization of power centralization of finances.

612
01:11:52,58 --> 01:11:59,65
Wealth creation and you know we're hearing about it all the time and I think.

613
01:12:01,03 --> 01:12:11,42
We're experiencing a lot of instability globally because of this so my hope is that.

614
01:12:11,42 --> 01:12:18,53
The pendulum that seems to be swinging one way will swing back the other way towards.

615
01:12:18,53 --> 01:12:24,88
Towards a little more regulation which would allow us to share the wealth more

616
01:12:25,23 --> 01:12:33,78
but for this I believe it's also really important that we have social scientists interacting with scientists

617
01:12:33,79 --> 01:12:46,61
and technologists on a fundamental level and figuring out Jaron Lanier had you know had suggested that maybe any.

618
01:12:46,61 --> 01:12:53,5
Knowledge creation through following people in their movements on the web instead of all of the wealth of that going to a

619
01:12:53,51 --> 01:13:02,76
centralized power some fraction of it should trickle back to the people who help to create the data that powers these

620
01:13:02,77 --> 01:13:10,4
great advances so you know I'm not sure whether that's the answer but I believe that we will have technologists

621
01:13:10,41 --> 01:13:17,62
and economists and anthropologists and ethicists looking at these questions

622
01:13:18,49 --> 01:13:25,58
when the world becomes sufficiently unhappy with how far the pendulum has swung. So in some sense fundamentally you feel

623
01:13:25,59 --> 01:13:34,6
that we kind of control our destiny in that respect by doing the right things. I think that we.

624
01:13:34,6 --> 01:13:43,77
You know that that human beings learn and I don't think anybody is comfortable with the instability now 

625
01:13:44,06 --> 01:13:52,58
and so in learning to decrease the variance and to decrease the instability.

626
01:13:52,58 --> 01:13:57,12
We're going to swing a little bit back towards equality

627
01:13:57,46 --> 01:14:04,46
and then you know we'll probably swing back again because we are. We're a dynamical system.

628
01:14:04,46 --> 01:14:09,76
Coming back to that. I don't dare to say the word phase transition because all the technology will collapse

629
01:14:09,77 --> 01:14:16,19
but let's briefly go back to your own.

630
01:14:16,19 --> 01:14:24,77
Earlier life where you were much more focused on your original I would say kind of academic love in mathematical

631
01:14:24,78 --> 01:14:31,13
physics so can you just tell us a little bit how did you start out in science and what did you exactly study

632
01:14:31,14 --> 01:14:38,46
and what did you do. so in my early career I studied phase transitions.

633
01:14:38,46 --> 01:14:47,67
In what are called disordered systems systems with some noise in them there were realizations of this

634
01:14:47,68 --> 01:14:57,06
in laboratories and some nice materials have special properties because of the noise.

635
01:14:57,06 --> 01:15:05,96
What was interesting is that although this was certainly not the reason that I went to Microsoft I went to found

636
01:15:05,97 --> 01:15:13,81
interdisciplinary groups because they were willing to support me on that but when the Internet started to take off

637
01:15:14,18 --> 01:15:23,46
and the World Wide Web started to take off I saw many of the same structures in these self organized

638
01:15:23,5 --> 01:15:31,1
but very noisy networks and so it really there was.

639
01:15:31,1 --> 01:15:35,47
The mathematical models I could take

640
01:15:35,78 --> 01:15:46,57
and I could look at these huge networks that we were creating So it was very much you know it was this lens through

641
01:15:46,58 --> 01:15:53,43
which I viewed phase transitions I mean I found inequalities on critical exponents

642
01:15:53,44 --> 01:16:00,58
and various various esoteric things in these systems I studied.

643
01:16:00,88 --> 01:16:09,13
But then I could go over to these other systems and see the same structures I think as scientists

644
01:16:09,39 --> 01:16:14,21
when we're young we learn that we put on certain lenses

645
01:16:14,22 --> 01:16:22,65
and no matter how we try those are always the first eyes with which we view any new problem

646
01:16:22,9 --> 01:16:30,63
and what got me so excited about technology is that occasionally they were very good eyes through which to view 

647
01:16:30,64 --> 01:16:35,74
You could see things that others couldn't see that others couldn't see yes.

648
01:16:35,74 --> 01:16:41,87
That's terrific. perhaps you know just wrapping up a little bit I want just to circle back to kind of the

649
01:16:41,88 --> 01:16:47,5
big picture and you know with all the lovely things we have seen happening in terms of technology

650
01:16:47,51 --> 01:16:54,96
and just come back to looking to the future so if you kind of close your eyes

651
01:16:54,97 --> 01:16:59,46
and you envision this world of tomorrow.

652
01:16:59,46 --> 01:17:00,94
Tell us just what comes up

653
01:17:00,95 --> 01:17:09,42
what bubbles up what do you see in this in this dream. so one of the things for me that would be very exciting I have

654
01:17:09,43 --> 01:17:17,85
collaborators all over the world and I love to see them and I think they like to see me and.

655
01:17:17,85 --> 01:17:25,1
It is just so frustrating because we have to carve time out of our schedules and we have to get on planes

656
01:17:25,11 --> 01:17:29,18
and you know get jetlag.

657
01:17:29,18 --> 01:17:39,11
And I really believe that at some point in the not too distant future I'm going to be able to be sitting in a room with

658
01:17:39,12 --> 01:17:47,27
you but you're not going to be here Or I'm going to be able to be standing at a you know blackboard with you and writing

659
01:17:47,28 --> 01:17:50,08
and we're both going to write and we're going to see each other's stuff

660
01:17:50,26 --> 01:17:56,56
and we can have somebody from yet another place interacting with us so for me as a scientist

661
01:17:57,49 --> 01:18:04,51
when I get an idea being able to connect with anyone in the. World at any time essentially.

662
01:18:04,51 --> 01:18:11,68
Is something that I'm really looking forward to and you know for others who do their own thing who are artists

663
01:18:11,69 --> 01:18:21,23
or who are musicians you know can they you know can you have a string quartet with four people in different countries

664
01:18:21,96 --> 01:18:32,45
you know wouldn't that be lovely. So where where it's not a degraded a terribly degraded form of reality

665
01:18:32,78 --> 01:18:35,07
so for me.

666
01:18:35,07 --> 01:18:39,48
You know this technology moves towards greater connection for me

667
01:18:39,49 --> 01:18:47,77
a scientific connection for others it will be artistic or you know your family is in Holland wouldn't you love to be

668
01:18:47,78 --> 01:18:58,14
able to sit down and have a dinner with them when you're sitting in Princeton you know. So you see this.

669
01:18:58,14 --> 01:19:05,51
If you then take the long view and you see human beings how they started probably living you know with just a handful.

670
01:19:05,51 --> 01:19:14,25
of very small isolated groups and we grow and now we have this incredibly complicated world getting closer to each

671
01:19:14,26 --> 01:19:19,7
other in some sense connecting more so we will have.

672
01:19:19,7 --> 01:19:23,49
Some transition to a phase where basically everybody is in contact with everybody as much as you want

673
01:19:23,5 --> 01:19:34,75
You think that will happen? I think it will be. It will be sparse in the sense OK so a sparse graph is one in which.

674
01:19:34,75 --> 01:19:40,7
You're not connected to a positive fraction of everybody else in the graph I don't think I'm going to have a billion

675
01:19:41,21 --> 01:19:42,95
people with whom I'm interacting

676
01:19:43,01 --> 01:19:53,83
but they can be anywhere that distances are just going to shrink so physical distances are going to shrink intellectual

677
01:19:53,89 --> 01:20:00,77
distances are going to shrink and so we will have. A much more 

678
01:20:00,8 --> 01:20:03,54
unified connected world

679
01:20:03,55 --> 01:20:10,2
and I think you know all of us strive whether you're you know a particle physicist actually striving for what you call

680
01:20:10,21 --> 01:20:20,16
grand unification or you know whether you are someone like me who wants to see certain aspects of physics and biology.

681
01:20:20,16 --> 01:20:23,44
Connected to each other.

682
01:20:23,44 --> 01:20:30,2
You know I think we all strive for that and that the technology will allow us to do that

683
01:20:30,21 --> 01:20:38,27
and we're seeing some of the intellectual connections before the physical connections but virtual reality I think

684
01:20:38,5 --> 01:20:48,21
when it's done right when you can really read someone else's emotions and you can. You can relate to them.

685
01:20:48,21 --> 01:20:57,94
Will allow us to also break down those you know barriers of distance. I'm not sure about the rest of the universe I mean

686
01:20:58,04 --> 01:21:05,85
I believe there are other I truly believe there are other sentient beings in the universe.

687
01:21:05,85 --> 01:21:15,98
So Also it would be very nice I think if we could connect with them without having to travel long distances. You feel we

688
01:21:16,22 --> 01:21:22,99
first have to connect with ourselves in order to make that next step? Yes I do actually

689
01:21:23,36 --> 01:21:28,82
and you know I don't know we are probably limited by the speed of light but.

690
01:21:28,82 --> 01:21:41,01
But you know I actually believe that within a distance that we can see there are other sentient beings you know that I

691
01:21:41,02 --> 01:21:50,26
can see in my lifetime. Do you see us pursuing that exploring the universe in the end. I hope so. Will we do it

692
01:21:50,26 --> 01:21:57,42
As physical beings or will we do it through our technology. I think we'll do it through our technology I think we have

693
01:21:58,07 --> 01:22:00,76
inherent limitations as 

694
01:22:00,88 --> 01:22:01,7
Physical beings

695
01:22:01,76 --> 01:22:16,55
and what this technology is going to do is free us from the physical limitations so that our almost unlimited drive to

696
01:22:16,56 --> 01:22:17,55
understand

697
01:22:17,59 --> 01:22:26,35
and to connect can truly be unleashed. If you then look at the timeline of human beings spending a few billion years

698
01:22:26,36 --> 01:22:30,04
on Planet Earth Life as we know it.

699
01:22:30,04 --> 01:22:36,79
But then at some point we'll be spreading across the universe is that what you see happening? I think we might especially

700
01:22:36,8 --> 01:22:42,09
if we ruin the earth which is a distinct possibility.

701
01:22:42,09 --> 01:22:42,55
But

702
01:22:43,34 --> 01:22:51,78
but I also believe that maybe we'll connect with other parts of the universe without actually physically going there so

703
01:22:52,12 --> 01:22:57,49
which might be easier I mean you know right now we're physically going just to the other side of the earth

704
01:22:57,86 --> 01:23:06,37
and you know last month I went to Europe three times from the US and it just.

705
01:23:06,37 --> 01:23:14,72
It's too much right it's too much and I certainly you know wouldn't want to try to leave our solar system.

706
01:23:14,72 --> 01:23:20,89
One of the big frustrations in life is that you can't unify with 

707
01:23:20,9 --> 01:23:22,52
another person.

708
01:23:22,52 --> 01:23:30,91
But somehow you are sketching a future where science and technology will allow us to do so. I believe so

709
01:23:30,92 --> 01:23:36,38
you know in my own personal life I have tried to do that. you know my husband and I work together

710
01:23:37,04 --> 01:23:45,12
and we write papers together we do research we run labs together so I do try to do this because I like to do many many

711
01:23:45,13 --> 01:23:45,63
things

712
01:23:45,64 --> 01:23:51,22
and I also like to be connected with people which means for my husband we must work together because we're going to

713
01:23:51,23 --> 01:23:57,22
spend too much time working and you know wouldn't it be nice if not quite to that extent

714
01:23:57,23 --> 01:24:00,77
but connection is possible because I believe.

715
01:24:01,28 --> 01:24:07,55
That scientifically you know very very often the whole is greater than the sum of the parts

716
01:24:07,99 --> 01:24:14,55
and so we need to break down both the intellectual barriers and the physical barriers

717
01:24:14,56 --> 01:24:23,61
and the part that technology has not realized for us yet are the physical barriers you know it's still I mean I know we

718
01:24:23,62 --> 01:24:29,49
can we can have a Skype call and it's wonderful relative to not having a Skype call

719
01:24:29,58 --> 01:24:39,23
but we still fly to see each other if we really want to work together you know and I'm really hoping that we can.

720
01:24:39,23 --> 01:24:43,98
Feel the other person's presence and.

721
01:24:43,98 --> 01:24:50,22
Not be inhibited by this barrier and be able to work together

722
01:24:50,23 --> 01:24:59,01
and you know do science together. I'm so happy I flew over here to have this conversation. Thank you very much.

723
01:24:59,01 --> 01:25:02,18
Can you imagine having this all the time. Yes. that's terrific.