Micheal Poulain: [inaudible 00:00:01] try to see the story. So, [inaudible 00:00:09] summarize the situation.
So, this village there is included in the blue zone, as well as the neighboring village,
so now we have about 14 village here that are forming a block that we will name the "blue zone." This is very important.
And then around you have also some mountain, but the longevity is a bit lower.
So this is what I will name the "light blue zone." And the rest of the country is not a long-living population.
They are not involved in the longevity. So this is really important.
This village is in the center of this area that is the blue zone. Okay.
So, if I want to pick all the village where we saw high longevity, I will say that all these village are included,
also these one here, and these one here.
So you have, really, an area like this, you see, where the longevity is the highest.
And when I did it for the first time I put it in blue.
So this is, really, the highest blue zone of Sardinia, while this area, the mountain around, is a bit lower longevity.
It's a lower blue zone. You see? And the rest of the country is not a blue zone, without longevity.
But this is really the main area of longevity.?
Interviewer: So tell me, Michael, where did it start personally, this search for [longitivity 00:01:41] But this is really the main area of longevity.?
But this is really the main area of longevity.?
Micheal Poulain: In fact, there is two step.
First I was, for the first time involved in centenarian study in Belgium in '92 with my friend,
so I was already in the field of centenarian.
But this story here, in the whole Sardinia, started in Montpelier in October 1999, and that was because my friend,
my new friend Gianni Pes, a medical doctor from Sassari arrive
and explain that in this area men are living as long as women, what is really exceptional,..
but nobody wanted to believe this. So, they decide .. I remember this meeting October where the are .. Oh you are too ...? and explain that in this area men are living as long as women, what is really exceptional,..
but nobody wanted to believe this. So, they decide .. I remember this meeting October where the are .. Oh you are too ...?
Interviewer: What's your personal fascination for [longitivity 00:02:33] but nobody wanted to believe this. So, they decide .. I remember this meeting October where the are .. Oh you are too ...?
but nobody wanted to believe this. So, they decide .. I remember this meeting October where the are .. Oh you are too ...?
Micheal Poulain: It's clear that if you have a place where men have the possibility to live as long as women,
this is unique on Earth because everywhere on Earth women are, I would say, five times,
ten times in larger number compared to men. And in this area, you have equal number.
So you have something to find, something to explain, and this is unique.
It's the only place on Earth where I saw this type of specificity.
Interviewer: And where comes your personal fascination?
Micheal Poulain: It's clear that longevity fascinate me, but to be-
Interviewer: Why?
Micheal Poulain: Why? Because for everybody living longer is something very attractive.
And the recipe to live longer and the secret of longevity, look in all the newspaper, in all the National Geographic,
it attracts so many person.
When I do a conference on longevity everybody is there attending the conference very happy to listen,
what are the secret of longevity?
Interviewer: And why are you fascinated by longevity? Personally.
Micheal Poulain: I don't want to live to 100, okay?.
But this is a very attractive topic, and suddenly, I don't know why.. Micheal Poulain: I don't want to live to 100, okay?.
Micheal Poulain: I don't want to live to 100, okay?.
I was already in the field of centenarian, but if there is a secret you have to find it on the scientific viewpoint.
You have to find something. And it's a question. I name it a longevity quest.
How can we explain that in this place men are living as long as women,
and there are so many centenarian in the cemetery? Why? That's the question.
Interviewer: That I understand. But what's your personal quest in this one?
Micheal Poulain: I am a scientist, okay, which mean that I need challenge.
And I understand not only that I was personally interested,
but that a lot of people in the scientific world are interested with that topic.
It's a very attractive topic even among scientist. And we have no question.
And I will say that at the end of the day, I like to do it because it's interdisciplinary approach.
The secret of longevity is not only in one field, in nutrition, in sociology, in anthropology, no.
It has to bring together all people to try to find the solution. And the solution here is not a simple one.
If you find me a gene that explain 10% of the super-longevity, I say, I will not be satisfy.
We have to find why here there are three times or four times more men reaching 90 and 100 than everywhere else.
That's not a small difference. This is a big difference. And up to now, we are not yet there.
The question is still open, and I will say that for a scientist, when question are still open, it's better than
when question are solve.
I will say that there is something to find, and that's what researcher wants to do, to find new line.
And if we find something then we'll be very happy, but maybe then it will be finish for my career.
Interviewer: This is the story the centennials from the past, in a way.
We are coming into future where many more people are getting much more older.
Every four years we gain one year, I believe.
Micheal Poulain: Yeah.
Interviewer: How do you see that, the new centennials that are not, like, grown up here in Sardinia
but are the centennials from the future? How do you see those developments?
Micheal Poulain: In fact, you have to understand that centennarian that we met here, and we are still looking today,
are exceptional person. They were a person that has very difficult life in their early life. They have to work hard.
They were pastore and so on, and when they were 60 or 70, at that moment they should have some problem with health,
but then the health service was improve.
Which mean in the 50, in the 60, they have the possibility to go to hospital, they have a maternity,
they have a lot of thing, so this is the conjunction of two change.
The fact that the old generation still work a lot, and did a lot of effort and caloric restriction and so on,
and that the modern world arrive with health and so on. And my feeling is that these centennarian are not by hazard.
They are the result of these two dimension.
In future, like it is in our country, the centennarian will be more random centennarian, by hazard.
People that escape to this or delay these type of disease and so on.
So the future centennarian will not be the same as the one we can see in this village. I have already seen the
situation in Okinawa.
In Okinawa there is no more new centennarian coming in large number because since '45,
the American arrive there with the modern life style and so on, so the situation for the new generation change fully.
And I'm sure that in future the longevity, exceptional longevity of Okinawa will disappear.
And this is my problem here, the young generation, if the young generation will transfer this treasure of longevity.
In all my talk in the municipality I say,
the most important is to understand that you have a treasure with this longevity.
Your lifestyle, your food, all what is around you, you have to keep it
and to transfer to the new generation so that you will keep this longevity.
If not, you will be as a very rare, some random centennarian,
and nobody will take care of these person because they will be lost in the society,
in the modern society that does not take care about the whole person.
So that situation is fully different, and what we try to do, for example, now in the US,
and they try to do it also in Costa Rica is to take the lesson from these area and to transfer in the modern world.
Not to say, okay, go as shepard in Sardinia. No. This is not possible. But look at what you are eating. Do exercise.
Don't stop to do this physical exercise. Your brain, social relationship, take care of the old person, and so on.
All those point emerging from the lesson of this blue zone could be transferred to our society,
and this is the challenge. So our work here is not only for a very local, exceptional situation..
It's to see what are these people .. What is their behavior that can be transfer for the whole modern society. and this is the challenge. So our work here is not only for a very local, exceptional situation.
It's to see what are these people .. What is their behavior that can be transfer for the whole modern society.
And in the US, this is very important against obesity, against a lot of thing like that.
And in our European country the same because people nowaday at 90 or 95 they are put on the side just to wait to die.
This is not correct. Here, the centennarian are on the top of the agenda. They are the keepers They stay in the family.
They are on the calendar in the municipality. They are in the photography and so on.
So, the role of the oldest old here is fully different. And this is what we can do in our modern society.
Interviewer: What would that mean for our society if would embrace that more?
Micheal Poulain: It means, for example, that to put people suddenly in the nursing home,
it is consider in our society as the place where you will go to die. This is not correct.
I have seen, also in the US, place where you may enter in a nursing home but by step.
You go first in the part where you stay with your spouse, then
when the spouse disappear you go to another place in the same surrounding, and if suddenly you became dependent,
you go still in another place. But you are in a surrounding where you don't change.
The main problem nowaday, I have seen it in my country, you have a problem of heath,
then quickly with your children we have to take a decision, Papi or Mami has to go to a nursing home
and not given a selected nursing home. They have to go in the only one that has available.
I have the case in my family, one uncle has to go there suddenly, within two weeks. This is not correct.
What I name the last migration, the migration to the nursing home,
is the worst that can be expected by a person. During the life course, the lower level of mobility is between 65
and 75. At that moment, nobody wants to move.
But after that, there is what I name the last migration, the migration when you are unhealthy, you are dependent,
either you go to your children, you go to nursing home, and so on.
But in our country we don't go anymore to the children because the parents and the children does not want.
The children are not available, and the parents don't want to [inaudible 00:12:09] their parents,
so you go to nursing home.
In my country, three fourth of the oldest old are in nursing home, but all the nursing home are not the same.
You have to know there are some nursing home that are fully appropriate, but most of them are not at all.
Interviewer: What are they doing here?
Micheal Poulain: They have no nursing home here. There is nobody in nursing home.
What is the situation in this area is that you are close to your neighbor, your are close to your family,
your daughter is living with you or in the neighboring house.
For example, Marco, here, is going to spend the night with his uncle once or twice a week.
There is a solidarity, full solidarity in the village, and nobody in nursing home.
Interviewer: You are in the explorer.
Micheal Poulain: Yeah.
Interviewer: That's the archetype..
Micheal Poulain: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Interviewer: That's the archetype..
Interviewer: That's the archetype..
Interviewer: Scientifically seen, what makes you an explorer?
Micheal Poulain: I will say that I like to enter in a field that is not usual for other scientist.
Very often I see that colleagues will jump on a topic that is already [treaten 00:13:20] by other scientists,
and just they add a small information..
In this topic, it's a new one, fully new one, and it's difficult because you have.. and just they add a small information..
and just they add a small information..
It took me years to prove that it's a very important topic, but nowaday, I have seen it this week,,
this three meeting that I have just beginning of this month. It took me years to prove that it's a very important topic, but nowaday, I have seen it this week,
I have a meeting in [Talin 00:13:43] in Vienna, and in [Portu 00:13:44] this three meeting that I have just beginning of this month. It took me years to prove that it's a very important topic, but nowaday, I have seen it this week.
this three meeting that I have just beginning of this month. I have a meeting in [Talin 00:13:43] in Vienna, and in [Portu 00:13:44]
this three meeting that I have just beginning of this month.,.
At the three meetings there were a lot of interest to this new concept, and that bring me the feeling that, okay,
it was difficult to convince people, convince researcher that this is a very useful topic, but after some times
when you keep it, you succeed. In all my career I did not want to have a easy way.
You make sure it's more difficult way, but at the end of the day you may succeed, and that,
it's really wonderful to see reaction of researcher and so on. That's very important.
Interviewer: And what topic are we talking about?.
Micheal Poulain: We are talking about.. Interviewer: And what topic are we talking about?.
Interviewer: And what topic are we talking about?.
Interviewer: Sorry.
[inaudible 00:14:23] So, could you explain me again, why is, scientifically seen, the archetype explorer fit for you?
Micheal Poulain: I will say that, among the scientist, there are very often different opportunity.
One opportunity is to jump in a topic that is already on the agenda of a lot of researcher,
and then you deal with the same thing, you try to do a new experiment, to replicate as we say,
and you bring some small additional information.
Another situation is when you develop and you enter in a new field, in a new topic, and that's what I did here.
At the beginning, putting on the table of the scientist a new topic, a new idea,
a new concept is really disturbing for two reason: they don't believe, or they are jealous. That's the two reason.
So, for me, I have a lot of difficulty, but I keep the line, and I may say that after 15 years,
now everybody respect this new concept of population longevity, the fact that blue zone are something very interesting,,
and there is something to take from this. now everybody respect this new concept of population longevity, the fact that blue zone are something very interesting,,
And I have a meeting at the beginning of the month in [Talin 00:15:32] then in Vienna, and in [Porto 00:15:34] and there is something to take from this. now everybody respect this new concept of population longevity, the fact that blue zone are something very interesting,
and there is something to take from this.,, And I have a meeting at the beginning of the month in [Talin 00:15:32] then in Vienna, and in [Porto 00:15:34]
and there is something to take from this.,,
and at the three meeting I talk about blue zone, and there were a lot of interest.
And people want really to know, what is specific in this blue zone, what do you bring as new information?
So, it's difficult in the career, but when you are explorer you go in an unknown world. And that's, for me, attractive.
You discover a place where there are no other scientist already in the field.
It's difficult, but then it brings you a lot of, I will say, positive sensation.
Interviewer: What are the blue zones in the world? Where are the blue zones?
Micheal Poulain: The blue zone, now we have four blue zone: Okinawa, Ikariai in Greece, Nicoya Peninsula in Costa Rica,
and Sardinia. And now I am always working on the possibility to find new blue zone.
So I have been last month in Caucasus, in Georgia, and I visited a hidden valley that was supposed to be wonderful.
That has been said in the past, in the Caucasus there are people living longer, so I went there.
It was attractive on anthropological viewpoint, but I visited six centennarian and I did survey, I checked the archive,
and at the end of my day, I have to consider that all of them exaggerate their age.
So, in fact, my conclusion is that there is no exceptional longevity in Caucasus. So I close the door.
Caucasus can not be a new blue zone. Now I have another one on the agenda. This is Cuba.
And Cuba, I'm sure there is something.
I'm sure there is place, and I have seen the place nearby Santa Clara where there is a lot of centennarian.
I visited them on the cemetery, I have some contact with the data, but to prove that this is a blue zone,
I need strong statistical data. That's very important. And these data are not available, that's the problem.
Because the government of Cuba did not give the green light.
You see, in Cuba, if you don't have a sign from the top,
you will not have access to data that are a bit more sensitive. And so I am waiting. The door is open.
But what is important, if I succeed to prove that Cuba is a blue zone,
with a health expenditure that is 1,000 less than in the US, to go in US and to tell it,
you need to have strong argument. You need to have strong evidence.
So I will not do it until I have my data and my proof.
But if it's so,
it will be a boom because you may show that you may reach 100 in large number in a country where you give only some
small preventive and no all these technical of medicine, the new medicine.
And no psychiatry, no psycholog, a lot of thing are missing in Cuba,
and the longevity is there. I have seen centennarian that has no freezer at home.
There is no possibility to keep the food. And they give me an ananas, and I never ate so wonderful ananas.
The sofa are just piece of wood. The house is piece of wood, but the smile, honestly, wonderful.
Children smiling all over the world, these are not the one that are in the richer country. That's important.
Interviewer: Not in the richer countries.
Micheal Poulain: No.
Interviewer: Do you want to be a centennarian?
Micheal Poulain: No.
Interviewer: Why not?
Micheal Poulain: I have another viewpoint. All depends what you are doing in one day, okay?
And I understand that some people at the end of the day may not conclude that they did something on that day.
When I see all what I am trying to do in one day, sometime it's so heavy, and so full,
that I think it's impossible to reach 100 like this..
So, seem that there is a different speed or a different level of activity and so on, so that finally .. that I think it's impossible to reach 100 like this..
that I think it's impossible to reach 100 like this..
I know some singers die at 50, but they have a full life, full, full, full, while other person die after 100
and did nothing alongside their life. So you see, there is a balance.
When you are doing study on the oldest old, you have all the same time the idea, I will be there soon,
and that brings me a lot of thought, sometimes negative, so I have to fight against the negative,
but I have seen these person. I saw the person 116. She is alone all the day. I saw the mother-in-law of my brother.
She is 101. And then I discuss with her, and I say, when you are awake during the night, what is in your brain?
And then she say, very simply, "I am praying.
Nothing else." But for me it's a question, what is going on in the brain of these person that are awake
and alone a full day. And is it depression or they are just looking on their life and pray, as she say, she pray.
That's very important.
And for me it put question because the longevity is in front of all of us, why marriage, children and so on,
this is beyond, but longevity is in front.
Interviewer: What is, for you, the most beautiful thing?
Micheal Poulain: I will say spontaneously, the moment that I prefer when I feel really the most happy,
it's two different thing. When I see the smile of a small child in a hidden country and so on, smiling.
I have photography of children that are so wonderful. Or, when I see a landscape like this, very quiet.
And some landscape I have been, for example, in India, in Kashmir and so on, you have this so beautiful landscape,
and then the problem of my fate erase, and I say, it's so beautiful.
And for me these are the most important moment in my life, to see those children
and the wonderful landscape that God give us, and that's very important.
Interviewer: Shall we every reach 200?
Micheal Poulain: I will say that Aubrey de Grey wanted to say that we will reach easily 150, 200, and even 1,000 years.
I am not convince.
Because he say that with the new medicine, you may repair everything on your body,
but I will say that if you have a car, and the tire is flat, you repair it, but if it is an old tire,
then you will have a new problem just a bit later. I think it's a dream.
And this is a point that we are discussing very often between scientists, is it an upper limit of the life,
or it will be an open door to 1,000 years old. I am convince that there is an upper limit.
And nowaday, people does not reach more than 116; 117 is the maximum.
And Jeanne Calment, who was 122, there is no chance that she will be replaced very soon. That's my point.
But this is a very big competition between different theory of demographer because some of these say, okay,
there is no limit and others say there is a limit, and that's important.
Interviewer: And when there is no limit?
Micheal Poulain: When there is no limit, it will being that there could be a person who will reach 140.
But to reach 140 you need to have a number of centennarian that is very,
very large because the probability to reach 140 is very low.
So the more you have centennarian, the more you will have the possibility to go to a higher age.
And that's why in France, for example, they have more centennarian, and they reach 115.
In Belgium it's more difficult; we reach only one and twelve.
In the Netherlands you have a person who have reached 115, but this is occasionally.
It's not due to the fact that you have a large number of centennarian, but this random.
So, I think, we discussed just recently, to reach higher age, you need, really, a larger number of centennarian.
And at one moment,
the total population on Earth is not enough so that you will have the possibility to have one person, for example, 150.
So this is a question. So, on a probability viewpoint, it's possible,
but you need to apply this probability to a initial number of person,
and the nine billion of population on Earth are not enough to get one person reaching 140 or 150. That's the point.
Crew: That's not bad. [inaudible 00:24:40]
Interviewer: When you look at that village and the next village we are going to,
what's happening in the blue zone area?
Micheal Poulain: So, in fact, we will going from village to village, and when you have a new village like this one,
then you have to assess the level of longevity in this village,
and to assess if the level is high enough to be a blue zone.
So now we will check this village, and then we will go to another one, and finally
when we were able to put on a map all these village, we form, really, an area that we name the blue zone.
That's very important.
Interviewer: When you look at that village, is that a blue zone village?
Micheal Poulain: This village is part of the blue zone, yes.
Interviewer: Proven.
Micheal Poulain: Yeah, it's proven. That mean that we have already checked the data.
The next one, it will be also on the same situation. So we have fourteen village that has been composing the blue zone.
One by one we put them together.
Interviewer: And when you look at villages that are not blue zone, the non-fourteen that are around here,?
what's the difference between ... Interviewer: And when you look at villages that are not blue zone, the non-fourteen that are around here,?
Interviewer: And when you look at villages that are not blue zone, the non-fourteen that are around here,?
Micheal Poulain: I will say that there is not a clear, quick difference.
It's a gradient,
which mean that at one moment you have to do the border to identify what is the real restricted blue zone,
the high blue zone, and then you have a light blue zone all around that is all the mountains part of Sardinia.
And the rest of Sardinia, including Sassari, including Cagliari, Oristano, all the city, this is the non-blue zone.
Interviewer: And what makes it that they are not able to be blue?
Micheal Poulain: This is the level of longevity,
the number of centennarian that you found divided by the number of new born one century ago.
In these village is really lower..
Interviewer: And is that because of different life? Of different .. In these village is really lower..
In these village is really lower..
Micheal Poulain: That's really the question mark.
Now, the fact that we identify a blue zone and a non-blue zone, now we are comparing the lifestyle, the food,
the environment, everything in the two part, and then we will see what are the biggest difference.
I already understood that one of the big difference is the proportion of shepard, so the role of shepard in the past,
because in the mountain, most ancestor of these people were shepard. If you go to the plain, there was no shepard.
This is not the same.
They are doing agriculture, they are growing cereal and so on, this is not the same way of living..
Interviewer: So that's the difference between .. They are doing agriculture, they are growing cereal and so on, this is not the same way of living..
They are doing agriculture, they are growing cereal and so on, this is not the same way of living..
Micheal Poulain: That's the main difference for us up to now..
That's why the blue zone is concentrated in the area where you have this pastoralism, where you have .. Micheal Poulain: That's the main difference for us up to now..
Micheal Poulain: That's the main difference for us up to now..
Everybody is working on the animals in the mountain.
Interviewer: That's in Sardinia?
Micheal Poulain: That's in Sardinia, yes.
And then it may be that you have the same in other country, but this is a question mark.
Which mean that, is it normal that with the same proportion of shepard in another country we don't have the longevity,
so this is a question mark, okay?
Interviewer: So, it's good to be a shepard.
Micheal Poulain: If you come to be shepard here, I'm not sure you will live longer.
Because you should be born here, you should live exactly as they live here, so it's a very complex thing.
So I don't recommend to come here to be shepard. First of all, nobody is shepard nowaday.
There are limited number of shepard. That's clear.
Interviewer: Tell me, the village behind you, is that a blue zone village?
Micheal Poulain: This village is part of the blue zone, which mean that we have been there, we check the data,
and we prove that the level of longevity in this village is really higher than Italian average.
There is a huge difference between the two.
So, we put it on the map, and putting all the village together we shape the blue zone,
and so this village is part of the blue zone.
Interviewer: Where does the name "blue zone" come from?
Micheal Poulain: Ah.
So, the first time that we went from village to village, at one moment I decide to put on a maps all the village,
and I mark in blue all the village.
So it was a blue area on the map, then I decide with Gianni that it was the blue zone.
And from that time, when we were discussing between us, we always talk about the blue zone. See,
this is a girl who died just at 100 and a few day, 14 day, 100 and a few day there. Mulas Leonarda.
Interviewer: How many centennials are lying here?
Micheal Poulain: A priory, you may find in the whole cemetery 30 at least, plus those who are alive,
and plus those who die outside of the village, in total you have more than 42 centennarian.
And among the 42, there are 22 male, and that's terrifically exceptional.
Usually you should find, among the centennarian, eight women for one man only.
Here you have the same number, that's crazy. I have another one here, look. This one, for example.
You see Fortunato, he is exactly, he was 101 when he die. And this is a man. This is a girl. You see?
But we should do an itinerary in the cemetery to show all those who are so age..
Look here, you have again this is 89, this is 90, and it's always like this. 82, 86, and look, this is 92 .. No, 98. But we should do an itinerary in the cemetery to show all those who are so age..
Look here, you have again this is 89, this is 90, and it's always like this. 82, 86, and look, this is 92 .. No, 98.
98.
This is, for me, when I visit a cemetery I want to feel this,
and if I come here I will directly say there is something to do, some research. Look, this one is 87..
And then you have everywhere .. 88. Usually the normal age of death is around 80, 82 and so on. and if I come here I will directly say there is something to do, some research. Look, this one is 87..
And then you have everywhere .. 88. Usually the normal age of death is around 80, 82 and so on.
When you start to have a lot of nonagerian or something like that, then it's really amazing, and then you say, okay,
it's worth to start the research to understand what happens here. And here I discover it directly.
And my friend who work with me is a specialist of cemetery.
He is jumping in all the cemetery,
and once he was even blocked in the cemetery because they closed the door at four o'clock,
and he was not able to go out.
But he did systematically all the cemetery of the surrounding to check those who reach 90, and that's very useful.
Interviewer: How many people died since you were last here?
Micheal Poulain: During one year?
Interviewer: No, the last time you were here.
Micheal Poulain: Since I was there beginning of March, there is 10 people who die, and among these there are four
or five nonagerian who die above 90, and only one who die younger, 70. But I will say that it's all above 85. Okay.
But, at the same time, you have very limited number of new born,
which mean that the population of the village is definitively going down quite quickly by natural increase,
negative natural increase.
And as there is no immigration because the young people here, one out of two decide to leave the village,
so the population of the village is going down slowly and slowly. Every year you have less and less people.
That's a problem for the survival of these type of place because more death than new born
and more emigration than immigration. That's okay.