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(interviewer) So what did we do, just a moment ago?

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We are now in a duck trap facility at Oud-Alblas.

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We have a longstanding practice of catching wild ducks here, for our research on flu viruses.

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These wild ducks are actually the natural hosts of flu viruses.

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The viruses are completely harmless to them...

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because these viruses evolved for millions of years in sync with birds.

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We can catch these birds quite easily here.

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Once they are caught we take samples of their cloacas and throaths.

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These viruses proliferate quickly in the respiratory system, both in humans and birds.

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However, in birds they also proliferate in the stomach and intestines.

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By taking samples we can identify these flu viruses in wild birds.

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(interviewer) What is your affinity with viruses?

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Viruses are fascinating organisms.

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In particular because they are so small, you cannot see them.

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Viruses are incredibly diverse. Every human, plant, animal, mold, bacterium, they all have their own viruses...

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dozens of different viruses per species.

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The diversity of viruses exceeds the diversity in nature we normally observe with our bare eyes.

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Viruses evolve, just like humans and animals do.

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However, viruses evolve quickly, so we can actually study evolution by studying viruses.

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And this is what my research group is mainly doing.

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They are interested in understanding how evolution works, in particular in viruses, in my case flu viruses.

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(interviewer) When people think of viruses, they usually think: oops, dangerous, or even deadly.

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Yes, well, most of the viruses we find in nature are completely harmless.

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Me myself, and all other humans, we are constantly hosting viruses that do not harm us.

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This is also the case for plants, molds, bacteria...

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Most viruses are completely harmless.

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The viruses in wild birds that we study are harmless to them...

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That does not mean that viruses are totally innocuous.

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We see, for example, that viruses in wild ducks can cross into poultry.

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They may evolve in poultry to more dangerous variants, that eventually kills chickens and turkeys.

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(interviewer) Are viruses a kind of conquerors of the world? Would that be a correct way to put it?

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Viruses did not really conquer the world. Actually, we conquered the world after the viruses.

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The theory is that viruses are the basis of life.

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Bacteria, molds, and the higher organisms have evolved from viral elements.

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Actually, viruses are the basis of contemporary life.

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We conquered the world at the expense of the viruses.

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(interviewer) But we are in a constant battle with them.

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Yes, there are constant new threaths and new viruses that cross between hosts.

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For example, from wild birds to poultry, or from poultry to humans.

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When viruses change hosts, we can discern some regularity in the problems that occur.

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We see that in flu viruses, but also in Zika and Ebola viruses.

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We have seen large pandemonia of viruses that were harmless for their natural hosts.

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But when they cross into a new host... new hosts are not really adapted to them, which causes trouble.

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(interviewer) They can cause really big trouble, right?

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Yes, most viruses are completely harmless, but we know that some families cause trouble.

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Especially when they cross from animal to human. The recent Ebola outbreak is a good example...

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Because the 'case fatality rate', the likeliness of death occuring in case of infection, was between 50%-90%.

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But the good thing of the Ebola virus is that it does not proliferate well among humans.

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And therefore there was no global outbreak, while other viruses can actually instantiate this.

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Flu viruses are an example: if they cross to humans, and if they can proliferate among them, then we see a pandemonium.

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That is a global epidemic, we have seen that in 2009 with the Mexican flu, and the swine flu that crossed to humans.

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Within a few months it was spread throughout the entire world.

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It is not as deadly as Ebola, but the epidemic killed at least 200.000 humans.

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(interviewer) Your lab is mainly working with this kind of viruses, but what is it that renders your lab a state-of-the-art lab?

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The big difference with other labs is that in our lab, viruses are studied from begin to end.

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We start studying wild birds, the evolution and adaption of viruses to these birds, their crossing to poultry...

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And how they cause problems there. We study the crossing from poulty to humans...

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what kind of evolution processes are relevant there, and we study how viruses evolve in humans.

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We see them returning every year in epidemics, they keep mutating, so that we constantly have to adapt our vaccines.

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We study all facets of evolution: in nature with wild birds, in the lab, by imitating viruses with molecular techniques...

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but also with genetic modification and in the lab with animal experiments. So actually the entire field from the natural origins...

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to studying the molecular process in the smallest details, is what distinguishes our lab.

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(interviewer) I also understood that you have a large archive?

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Yes, we have build archives throughout the years. Rotterdam has employed virologists that work on viruses for more than 50 years.

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The collection in our deep freezers dates back to the '30s, '40s, the time of prof. Mulder and prof. Masurel.

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They are still being updated. So also for bird flu, swine flu, human flu... we have an enormous collection of viruses.

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(interviewer) And if you have to explain in a few words what your research is about?

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My research focuses on the evolution of flu viruses: when they adapt to new hosts, and when they try to escape our immune system.

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That is the core of my research.

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(interviewer) Some time ago you studied the proliferation of viruses, you even made a virus yourself...

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(interviewer) Can you describe what happened in August 2011?

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In the summer of 2011, we discovered that the H5N1 bird flu virus, which is highly pathogenic and deadly for chickens...

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Could be transmitted between mammals via the respiratory system.

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This kind of transmission through the air is what happens normally in pandemonia, so we tried to understand that...

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By looking at this bird flu virus. But this is a relatively dangerous flu virus. We manipulated the virus...

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In well-secured labs, of course, and it became not only pathogenic but also transmissible.

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This was remarkable, because it was the first demonstration of how a bird flu virus...

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Becomes transmissible between mammals. We were eager to publish our results. But during the peer-review process...

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The viruses we manipulated were evaluated as being too susceptible to misuse by terrorists, for biological weapons.

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The US government tried to withhold the publication of our data, method and results.

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This should not be possible in science. We work in a transparent environment, so we share our results with our fellow scientists...

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to help propagate science further, and to prevent the outbreak of pandemic viruses in the future.

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The only way to do that is by sharing all information, by cooperation, and understanding how these viral transmissions work.

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Subsequently there were global discussions that not only the Americans had to be aware of this issue...

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But also the World Health Organisation. In 2012 they recommended to publish our study in all its glory...

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So that the field of virology and flu research would be able to thrive.

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(interviewer) But this was not quite a convenient period for you.

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Indeed, it had quite some impact. If a government thinks that you are in possession of a biological weapon...

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Then intelligence services will come by, security services, to ensure that the virus stays in the lab.

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But it is not a weapon, it is an object of scientific inquiry. The virulency and transmissibility...

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are being exaggerated by the lay media. But meausures were taken. You are being secured...

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The deep freezer files were protected, computers were screened, too see whether terrorists looked over your shoulder

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As a scientist, you seldom have experiences like this, and you do not want to have them again.

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(interview) It influenced your private life directly as well.

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It influences your private life, yes. For example, we had to travel all around the globe...

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To meet the World Health Organisation, the US government. This means being away from home a lot.

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And if you are at home, with wife and children, the police is patrolling your street to check up on you.

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(interviewer) Is this still bothering you?

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No, since the summer of 2012 it is quiet. There are still global discussions about the topic, and about changing laws...

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but my private life is quiet again.

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(interview) But I understood that in this period, you were also threatened.

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Yes, on internet there were people threatening me and my family, saying things one wouldn't wish to one's enemy.

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(interviewer) What is it that makes people react so ferociously?

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Most people lack understanding of this subject. The American media said that we made a biological weapon...

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and that if it would escape my lab, half of the world's population would cease to exist within months.

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If you spread this kind of false information, then I can imagine that people become uneasy.

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The fact that we were not allowed to share our data caused a disproportional exaggeration of our research...

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in the American press, and that trickles down to The Netherlands. And some lay men think...

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that they have enough knowledge of the facts, while these facts are not even on the table.

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But they apparently know enough of these facts to call to harm me.

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(interviewer) What are your reflections on that period?

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It was an incredibly worrisome time in my academic career. One of my biggest scientific successes...

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Evokes so much controversy, that one almost thinks that not having that success would have been better.

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It was a worrisome period. Yet, we learned a lot from it, it stimulated our research, that would not have been possible otherwise.

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(interviewer) A new lab has been built. It is extremely well-secured, isn't it?

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Yes, because of public uneasiness about viruses, the attention by the lay press and politicians.

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You see that in the last 10 years the rules concerning biosafety and biosecurity in labs are becoming more strict.

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The terrorist attacks in the US contributed to this development. My research funds are mainly coming from the US.

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Which means that I have to comply to the US rules, and these are becoming more strict.

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The result is that I am working in a bunker, to keep dangerous people out. It is inconvenient, but apparently necessary.

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(interviewer) But security measures are also necessary to keep the virus in the lab.

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Yes, we work under biosafety and biosecurity conditions.

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Biosafety means keeping dangerous viruses in the lab, biosecurity means keeping dangerous people out.

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We do not want our lab workers to become infected. Fortunately this is kind of impossible in our lab...

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because of all these layers of biosafety management, we can guarantee the security of our employees.

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Experiments are conducted in hermetically sealed cabinets. Our people are protected from infections.

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(interviewer) You have a top-notch laboratory, the lab is globally acknowledged, why is that?

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I think that the multidisciplinary character of our research in Rotterdam...

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(interviewer) Sorry, let me please ask the question again.

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(interviewer) Your lab is globally acknowledged, what is the reason behind this?

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I think that especially the multidisciplinarity of our research is quite unmatched.

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We have experts in the ecology of wild animals, who observe animals in the wild...

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but we also have pathologists, animal experimenters, molecular bioligists, geneticists...

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All this expertise merges in our research group, which allows us to answer all questions in virology. This renders us unique.

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(interviewer) Is your assistance demanded in case of trouble?

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Yes, there are virus outbreaks somewhere on the globe every year, or every few years...

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last year in the Netherlands in poultry, we had a H5N8 bird flu outbreak.

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But we are also called-for in case of trouble in Bangladesh, Indonesia, Georgia...

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to assist the locals in answering research questions, but we also provide advice...

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in case of an outbreak. We are happy to do that, we do it a lot, almost every year.

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(interviewer) So is your research carried out secretly, or is it public?

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The research of my group is completely public, we work in academics, not in an army base.

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We work with scientists and students from across the globe, this means that our research...

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is carried out transparently. From the start, that is, from annoucing experiments, applying for funds...

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to publication, and giving lectures. Every detail will be shared and communicated to the rest of the world.

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(interviewer) If we look to the future, what will be the role of viruses? How can we control them?

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Well, viruses prove to be quite comprehensible after a bit of research.

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After 25 years of research on AIDS, we can treat AIDS with anti-viral medicines.

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(interviewer) Let us wait for the plane to pass... So, if we look to the future...

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(interviewer) what can we expect of viruses in the future? In what way can we use them?

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A sufficient amount of research allows us to control viruses.

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We eradicated some global viruses already: smallpox for example, does not exist anymore.

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Other infectious diseases are treatable quite well, like AIDS, or hepatitis.

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We anticipate flu viruses with vaccins, but they are not yet functioning optimal.

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They provide at best 80% protection. But my research group and others around the globe are working very hard...

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to design vaccins that provide 100% protection, and protect you from all other flu variants found in nature.

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If we have those, then in principle there is no need to die because of the flu.

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(interviewer) But can we predict the evolution of these viruses?

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Flu viruses, just like many other viruses, evolve incredibly fast. You become resilient to them...

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but after a few years, you will see that the virus can infect you again because it secretly changed a little bit.

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This is why viruses return every winter; despite your earlier infections and resilience, they have changed slightly...

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relative to your last infection. So once in, say, 10 years, you become infected.

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We are currently researching whether we can make vaccins for the most conserved outer parts of viruses...

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so that the virus cannot escape anymore. We try to target the crucial proteins, that are so crucial...

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that when you change them, the virus will become crippled. We are currently working hard on that.

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So hopefully, this will stop viruses from escaping our immune system.

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(interviewer) What will all of this mean for us?

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That the groups that face risks, and are vaccinated pre-emptively, people with asthma, diabetes, elderly people...

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That they do not need to die because of the flu. We see that flu epidemics every year and world wide...

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result in about 500 million casualties, that is quite a number. In principle this is preventable in the future.

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People with this kind of vaccin against flu, but also other respiratory problems, will become much older.

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And perhaps most important, they will also be healthier in their longer lives.

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(interviewer) Can we redo the last part? What will all of this mean for us?

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All those patients that are suffering diabetes...

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These birds are quite noisy, they even produce more noise than I can!

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(interviewer) We are not only conquering the world of the viruses but also with the viruses, right?

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Yes, the growth of knowledge in virology enables us to use viruses to increase public heath.

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The AIDS-virus, HIV, is well understood. We know exactly which parts of it we can remove, replace...

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so that the virus becomes completely innocuous, and usable as vehicle.

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The AIDS-virus is used to cure patients with immune deficiencies. These people have a defective gene...

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And by using a HIV-virus that carries a correct copy of that gene, we can cure people with viruses..

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viruses that would have killed us 25 years ago.

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Similar attempts are made to use viruses against cancer, to repair other gen deficiencies...

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or to use them as medicine-carriers, that can deliver medicines to exact locations in human bodies.

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(interviewer) So you are kind of using the natural properties of viruses.

186
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Yes, the diversity of viruses is enormous. They all have their own particular properties...

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and we can pick the viruses with the properties that are most benificient for us.

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Then we manipulate the viruses so that they become harmless to us...

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but at the same time keep the properties that we need to transport genes or medicines to specific locations.

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(interviewer) So you use viruses to transport genes to exact locations? How does that work?

191
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A virus is basically a globule of fat, which contains genetic material. We can manipulate that.

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We can remove non-essential parts, but we can also remove the infective parts...

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the removed parts can be replaced with genes of interest. For example, a correct gene for a defective one.

194
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(interviewer) And that means a cure?

195
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Then we infect the patient with a virus, that we rendered harmless, actually a virus that cures you...

196
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because it will multiply in your cells, and will inject a correct version of a gen where there used to be deficiences.

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(interviewer) This is quite a special future for humans and viruses, isn't it?

198
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The technology is actually still in its infancy, for we have been working for more than 25 years...

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on gene therapy, viral vehicles, to cure people. The last few years there has been an enourmous development...

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with viruses that are totally harmless to humans and animals, and that are easy to produce and inject.

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Viruses that we can use to cure patients that are seriously ill. Hopefully in the future also for cancer.

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Currently the first cancer medicines are available, but these do not work for some aggresive types...

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prostate cancer, brain tumors. We are working hard on this: manipulating viruses to cure these diseases.

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(interviewer) So if you look to your field of inquiry, what are your wildest dreams?

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That ultimately, we will be able to become older in a healthy way. So that means...

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without infections of the resipiratory system, without cancer.

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We will achieve that, in the coming decennia.

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Among other things, we will achieve this by using the viruses that used to infect us.

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But by all these manipulations, they will rather cure us in the future. We can use them...

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as vehicles for vaccins, as therapy for cancer, and other genetic deficiences.